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ANNOUNCE: Pound - reverse proxy and load balancer
by Robert Segall 25 May '02

25 May '02

For a long time I have been bothered by a few problems concerning the infrastructure around Zope: - load balancing: Zope/ZEO is a great combination, but load balancing between several servers on a heavily-loaded site is expensive (read: commercial, hardware-based boxes) or problematic (round-robin DNS may not be available to everybody and keeping sessions is iffy). - SSL: m2crypto is a nice package but I had a few problems with it. Apache mod_ssl/mod_proxy is great, but a bit overkill from my point of view. As a result I wrote Pound: it is a load balancer (it will distribute the load between several back-end servers, while keeping track of sessions) and an SSL wrapper (it accepts HTTPS requests, decrypts them and passes them as plain HTTP). For further information, download, etc. please see http://www.apsis.ch/pound The software is at version 0.1 - alpha quality. It works for me... Further testing (especially under heavy loads), improvements and bug (what bugs ?) fixes are welcome. Pound is distributed under the GPL. Enjoy and let me know how it works for you. -- Robert Segall Apsis GmbH Postfach, Uetikon am See, CH-8707 Tel: +41-1-920 4904

1 0

Zope External Editor
by Joachim Schmitz 24 May '02

24 May '02

Hi Casey, thanks for the wonderful product, I installed it under SuSE linux and use it with the xjed-editor and just for a test with staroffice 5.2 and it works great. Why did it take so long, till someone implemented this obious solution ? this is the solution I have been waiting for since years. Many thanks again. When do you think, the windowshelper-app will be available ? Mit freundlichen Grüßen Joachim Schmitz -------------------------------------------------------------------- AixtraWare Ingenieurbüro für Internetanwendungen Hüsgenstr. 33a, D-52457 Aldenhoven Telefon: +49-2464-8851, FAX: +49-2464-905163 -------------------------------------------------------------------- Key fingerprint = DA10 CC82 62F8 1DBB 39A1 1EDC 725B 3317 A8D7 C3A6 Keyserver: http://www.keyserver.net/en/

4 16

ZCVSFolder + plain text export format
by Marius Gedminas 24 May '02

24 May '02

Hi, We use ZCVSFolder here at www.CodeWorks.lt extensively, and we've been contributing patches to it. One of the main chores with ZCVSFolder is the unreadability of XML-exported files (random object IDs, random reorderings of document nodes, escape sequences in document bodies etc.). This makes the XMLs basically unreadable, undiffable and unmergeable. As an alternative we developed an alternative export format, which resembles RFC-822 a lot. Here's an example of an exported Python script: Bindings: container='container' context='context' namespace='' script='script' subpath='traverse_subpath' Id: language_buttons Local-Roles: mg=('Owner',) Meta-Type: Script (Python) Owner: acl_users mg Parameters: Permissions: Proxy-Roles: Title: # Example code: # Import a standard function, and get the HTML request and response objects. from Products.PythonScripts.standard import html_quote request = container.REQUEST RESPONSE = request.RESPONSE # Return a string identifying this script. print "This is the", script.meta_type, '"%s"' % script.getId(), if script.title: print "(%s)" % html_quote(script.title), print "out", container.absolute_url() return printed Advantages: - This format is compact, easily readable, diffable and mergeable - It contains only relevant object attributes, instead of being a dump of internal representation (e.g. storing both source code and base64-encoded compiled bytecode for Python scripts in exported XML files) Disadvantages: - Export of different object types is no longer automatic, you have to write code for every supported meta-type (only about 20 lines of Python for every supported meta-type on average). - The code may drift, e.g., when new attributes are added into Zope objects but import/export is not updated. This may cause maintainability problems. I am now starting to think about future possibilities. If such a representation would get officially endorsed and included into Zope proper, and import/export routines were added to the objects themselves, it would eliminate the second disadvantage (code drift). There would also be a standard interface to get to a plaintext representation of both data and metadata, more extensive than document_src(). The possibilities are endless. It would be nice to be able to connect to a running zope instance via FTP/whatever and get and edit objects in this format. This would allow the users to see/change metadata also. There would no longer be a need for PUT_factory external methods for creating new objects of various kinds. What do you think about this? BTW if anyone wants to see the actual code, take a look into ZCVSFolder CVS repository (cvs.zcvsfolder.sourceforge.net module zcvsfolder), mg-patches branch. It will be merged into main branch in a week if Steve Spicklemire approves. I suppose I could make the code available on the web somewhere if there's any interest. Marius Gedminas -- If C gives you enough rope to hang yourself, C++ gives you enough rope to bind and gag your neighborhood, rig the sails on a small ship, and still have enough rope left over to hang yourself from the yardarm.

4 3

CMFArticle and TALESError
by eric.n.dunn＠bankofamerica.com 24 May '02

24 May '02

Installed CMFArticle-0.22.tar.tgz Created ExternalMethod Article showed up in list of objects to add to my CMF site. All works except "Table Element" I can add but cannot view... any idea's? Traceback (innermost last): File /local/zope-2.5/lib/python/ZPublisher/Publish.py, line 150, in publish_module File /local/zope-2.5/lib/python/ZPublisher/Publish.py, line 114, in publish File /local/zope-2.5/lib/python/Zope/__init__.py, line 158, in zpublisher_exception_hook (Object: TestArticle) File /local/zope-2.5/lib/python/ZPublisher/Publish.py, line 98, in publish File /local/zope-2.5/lib/python/ZPublisher/mapply.py, line 88, in mapply (Object: article_view) File /local/zope-2.5/lib/python/ZPublisher/Publish.py, line 39, in call_object (Object: article_view) File /local/zope-2.5/lib/python/Shared/DC/Scripts/Bindings.py, line 252, in __call__ (Object: article_view) File /local/zope-2.5/lib/python/Shared/DC/Scripts/Bindings.py, line 283, in _bindAndExec (Object: article_view) File /local/zope-2.5/lib/python/Products/PageTemplates/ZopePageTemplate.py, line 267, in _exec (Object: article_view) File /local/zope-2.5/lib/python/Products/CMFCore/FSPageTemplate.py, line 99, in pt_render (Object: article_view) File /local/zope-2.5/lib/python/Products/PageTemplates/PageTemplate.py, line 156, in pt_render (Object: article_view) (Info: {'container': <CMFSite instance at 8ca4040>, 'here': <Article instance at 8eeaf90>, 'modules': <Products.PageTemplates.ZRPythonExpr._SecureModuleImporter instance at 0x868ae1c>, 'nothing': None, 'options': {'args': ()}, 'request': <h3>form</h3><table></table><h3>cookies</h3><table><tr valign="top" align="left"><th>email</th><td>'eric.n.dunn(a)bankofamerica.com'</td></tr><tr valign="top" align="left"><th>portal_skin</th><td>'Basic'</td></tr><tr valign="top" align="left"><th>zwiki_showlogo</th><td>'1'</td></tr><tr valign="top" align="left"><th>_suggest_email</th><td>'eric.n.dunn%40bankofamerica.com'</td></tr><tr valign="top" align="left"><th>zwiki_showquote</th><td>'1'</td></tr><tr valign="top" align="left"><th>zwiki_username</th><td>'EricDunn'</td></tr><tr valign="top" align="left"><th>__ac_name</th><td>'infonet'</td></tr><tr valign="top" align="left"><th>zwiki_width</th><td>'300'</td></tr><tr valign="top" align="left"><th>zwiki_bookmarks</th><td>'RecentChanges UserOptions HelpPage'</td></tr><tr valign="top" align="left"><th>zwiki_timezone</th><td>''</td></tr><tr valign="top" align="left"><th>zwiki_height</th><td>'300'</td></tr><tr valign="top" align="left"><th>tree-s</th><td>'eJyLjlZ3hANPW/XYWAAtiQTP'</td></tr><tr valign="top " align="left"><th>SITESERVER</th><td>'ID=58f8d8b1b3dddf5f8b2e697a89387b2b'</td></tr><tr valign="top" align="left"><th>zwiki_showhierarchy</th><td>'1'</td></tr><tr valign="top" align="left"><th>zwiki_showsearch</th><td>'1'</td></tr><tr valign="top" align="left"><th>zwiki_advancededit</th><td>'1'</td></tr><tr valign="top" align="left"><th>suggest_notify</th><td>''</td></tr></table><h3>lazy items</h3><table><tr valign="top" align="left"><th>SESSION</th><td><Python Method object at 0x8cae0c8></td></tr></table><h3>other</h3><table><tr valign="top" align="left"><th>_suggest_email</th><td>'eric.n.dunn%40bankofamerica.com'</td></tr><tr valign="top" align="left"><th>BASE7</th><td>'http://mad.bankofamerica.com:9090/MAD/MADG/Members/TestProjects/Folder1/Tes…'</td></tr><tr valign="top" align="left"><th>BASE6</th><td>'http://mad.bankofamerica.com:9090/MAD/MADG/Members/TestProjects/Folder1'</td></tr><tr valign="top" align="left"><th>portal_skin</th><td>'Basic'</td></tr><tr valign="top" align="left"><th>BASE4< /th><td>'http://mad.bankofamerica.com:9090/MAD/MADG/Members'</td></tr><tr valign="top" align="left"><th>BASE3</th><td>'http://mad.bankofamerica.com:9090/MAD/MADG'</td></tr><tr valign="top" align="left"><th>SITESERVER</th><td>'ID=58f8d8b1b3dddf5f8b2e697a89387b2b'</td></tr><tr valign="top" align="left"><th>BASE1</th><td>'http://mad.bankofamerica.com:9090'</td></tr><tr valign="top" align="left"><th>BASE0</th><td>'http://mad.bankofamerica.com:9090'</td></tr><tr valign="top" align="left"><th>TraversalRequestNameStack</th><td>[]</td></tr><tr valign="top" align="left"><th>zwiki_showhierarchy</th><td>'1'</td></tr><tr valign="top" align="left"><th>zwiki_width</th><td>'300'</td></tr><tr valign="top" align="left"><th>PUBLISHED</th><td><FSPageTemplate instance at 8e37c30></td></tr><tr valign="top" align="left"><th>BASE8</th><td>'http://mad.bankofamerica.com:9090/MAD/MADG/Members/TestProjects/Folder1/Tes…'</td></tr><tr valign="top" align="left"><th>zwiki_bookmarks</th><td>'RecentChanges UserOptio ns HelpPage'</td></tr><tr valign="top" align="left"><th>zwiki_timezone</th><td>''</td></tr><tr valign="top" align="left"><th>zwiki_height</th><td>'300'</td></tr><tr valign="top" align="left"><th>BASE5</th><td>'http://mad.bankofamerica.com:9090/MAD/MADG/Members/TestProjects'</td></tr><tr valign="top" align="left"><th>URL</th><td>'http://mad.bankofamerica.com:9090/MAD/MADG/Members/TestProjects/Folder1/Tes…'</td></tr><tr valign="top" align="left"><th>BASE2</th><td>'http://mad.bankofamerica.com:9090/MAD'</td></tr><tr valign="top" align="left"><th>URL1</th><td>'http://mad.bankofamerica.com:9090/MAD/MADG/Members/TestProjects/Folder1/Tes…'</td></tr><tr valign="top" align="left"><th>suggest_notify</th><td>''</td></tr><tr valign="top" align="left"><th>zwiki_showquote</th><td>'1'</td></tr><tr valign="top" align="left"><th>email</th><td>'eric.n.dunn(a)bankofamerica.com'</td></tr><tr valign="top" align="left"><th>__ac_name</th><td>'infonet'</td></tr><tr valign="top" align="left"><th>zwiki_usernam e</th><td>'EricDunn'</td></tr><tr valign="top" align="left"><th>traverse_subpath</th><td>[]</td></tr><tr valign="top" align="left"><th>zwiki_showsearch</th><td>'1'</td></tr><tr valign="top" align="left"><th>SERVER_URL</th><td>'http://mad.bankofamerica.com:9090'</td></tr><tr valign="top" align="left"><th>AUTHENTICATED_USER</th><td>zopeadmin</td></tr><tr valign="top" align="left"><th>AUTHENTICATION_PATH</th><td>''</td></tr><tr valign="top" align="left"><th>zwiki_showlogo</th><td>'1'</td></tr><tr valign="top" align="left"><th>URL2</th><td>'http://mad.bankofamerica.com:9090/MAD/MADG/Members/TestProjects/Folder1'</td></tr><tr valign="top" align="left"><th>URL3</th><td>'http://mad.bankofamerica.com:9090/MAD/MADG/Members/TestProjects'</td></tr><tr valign="top" align="left"><th>URL0</th><td>'http://mad.bankofamerica.com:9090/MAD/MADG/Members/TestProjects/Folder1/Tes…'</td></tr><tr valign="top" align="left"><th>URL6</th><td>'http://mad.bankofamerica.com:9090/MAD'</td></tr><tr valign="top" align="le ft"><th>URL7</th><td>'http://mad.bankofamerica.com:9090'</td></tr><tr valign="top" align="left"><th>URL4</th><td>'http://mad.bankofamerica.com:9090/MAD/MADG/Members'</td></tr><tr valign="top" align="left"><th>URL5</th><td>'http://mad.bankofamerica.com:9090/MAD/MADG'</td></tr><tr valign="top" align="left"><th>tree-s</th><td>'eJyLjlZ3hANPW/XYWAAtiQTP'</td></tr><tr valign="top" align="left"><th>zwiki_advancededit</th><td>'1'</td></tr><tr valign="top" align="left"><th>URL0</th><td>http://mad.bankofamerica.com:9090/MAD/MADG/Members/TestProjects/Folder1/Tes…</td></tr><tr valign="top" align="left"><th>URL1</th><td>http://mad.bankofamerica.com:9090/MAD/MADG/Members/TestProjects/Folder1/Tes…</td></tr><tr valign="top" align="left"><th>URL2</th><td>http://mad.bankofamerica.com:9090/MAD/MADG/Members/TestProjects/Folder1</td></tr><tr valign="top" align="left"><th>URL3</th><td>http://mad.bankofamerica.com:9090/MAD/MADG/Members/TestProjects</td></tr><tr valign="top" align="left"><th>URL4</th><td>h ttp://mad.bankofamerica.com:9090/MAD/MADG/Members</td></tr><tr valign="top" align="left"><th>URL5</th><td>http://mad.bankofamerica.com:9090/MAD/MADG</td></tr><tr valign="top" align="left"><th>URL6</th><td>http://mad.bankofamerica.com:9090/MAD</td></tr><tr valign="top" align="left"><th>URL7</th><td>http://mad.bankofamerica.com:9090</td></tr><tr valign="top" align="left"><th>BASE0</th><td>http://mad.bankofamerica.com:9090</td></tr><tr valign="top" align="left"><th>BASE1</th><td>http://mad.bankofamerica.com:9090</td></tr><tr valign="top" align="left"><th>BASE2</th><td>http://mad.bankofamerica.com:9090/MAD</td></tr><tr valign="top" align="left"><th>BASE3</th><td>http://mad.bankofamerica.com:9090/MAD/MADG</td></tr><tr valign="top" align="left"><th>BASE4</th><td>http://mad.bankofamerica.com:9090/MAD/MADG/Members</td></tr><tr valign="top" align="left"><th>BASE5</th><td>http://mad.bankofamerica.com:9090/MAD/MADG/Members/TestProjects</td></tr><tr valign="top" align="left"><th>BASE6</th><td>http://mad.bankofamerica.com :9090/MAD/MADG/Members/TestProjects/Folder1</td></tr><tr valign="top" align="left"><th>BASE7</th><td>http://mad.bankofamerica.com:9090/MAD/MADG/Members/TestProjects/Folder1/Tes…</td></tr><tr valign="top" align="left"><th>BASE8</th><td>http://mad.bankofamerica.com:9090/MAD/MADG/Members/TestProjects/Folder1/Tes…</td></tr></table><h3>environ</h3><table><tr valign="top" align="left"><th>HTTP_ACCEPT_ENCODING</th><td>'gzip, deflate'</td></tr><tr valign="top" align="left"><th>channel.creation_time</th><td>1022266932</td></tr><tr valign="top" align="left"><th>SERVER_PROTOCOL</th><td>'HTTP/1.1'</td></tr><tr valign="top" align="left"><th>SERVER_PORT</th><td>'9090'</td></tr><tr valign="top" align="left"><th>PATH_INFO</th><td>'/MAD/MADG/Members/TestProjects/Folder1/TestArticle/article_view'</td></tr><tr valign="top" align="left"><th>HTTP_HOST</th><td>'mad.bankofamerica.com:9090'</td></tr><tr valign="top" align="left"><th>REQUEST_METHOD</th><td>'GET'</td></tr><tr valign="top" align="left"><th>PA TH_TRANSLATED</th><td>'/MAD/MADG/Members/TestProjects/Folder1/TestArticle/article_view'</td></tr><tr valign="top" align="left"><th>HTTP_COOKIE</th><td>'_suggest_email="eric.n.dunn%40bankofamerica.com"; suggest_notify=""; email="eric.n.dunn(a)bankofamerica.com"; zwiki_showlogo="1"; zwiki_showquote="1"; zwiki_username="EricDunn"; zwiki_width="300"; zwiki_bookmarks="RecentChanges UserOptions HelpPage"; zwiki_timezone=""; zwiki_height="300"; zwiki_showhierarchy="1"; zwiki_showsearch="1"; zwiki_advancededit="1"; __ac_name="infonet"; portal_skin="Basic"; tree-s="eJyLjlZ3hANPW/XYWAAtiQTP"; SITESERVER=ID=58f8d8b1b3dddf5f8b2e697a89387b2b'</td></tr><tr valign="top" align="left"><th>SCRIPT_NAME</th><td>''</td></tr><tr valign="top" align="left"><th>SERVER_SOFTWARE</th><td>'Zope/(Zope 2.5.0 (binary release, python 2.1, linux2-x86), python 2.1.2, linux2) ZServer/1.1b1'</td></tr><tr valign="top" align="left"><th>HTTP_ACCEPT_LANGUAGE</th><td>'en-us'</td></tr><tr valign="top" align="left"><th>HTTP_ACCEPT</th><td>'image/gif, ima ge/x-xbitmap, image/jpeg, image/pjpeg, application/msword, application/vnd.ms-excel, application/vnd.ms-powerpoint, */*'</td></tr><tr valign="top" align="left"><th>REMOTE_ADDR</th><td>'171.172.66.152'</td></tr><tr valign="top" align="left"><th>HTTP_REFERER</th><td>'http://mad.bankofamerica.com:9090/MAD/MADG/Members/TestProjects/Folder1/Tes…'</td></tr><tr valign="top" align="left"><th>SERVER_NAME</th><td>'han.bankofamerica.com'</td></tr><tr valign="top" align="left"><th>GATEWAY_INTERFACE</th><td>'CGI/1.1'</td></tr><tr valign="top" align="left"><th>HTTP_USER_AGENT</th><td>'Mozilla/4.0 (compatible; MSIE 5.5; Windows NT 4.0)'</td></tr><tr valign="top" align="left"><th>CONNECTION_TYPE</th><td>'Keep-Alive'</td></tr></table>, 'root': <Application instance at 8bc86e8>, 'template': <FSPageTemplate instance at 8e37c30>, 'traverse_subpath': [], 'user': zopeadmin}) File /local/zope-2.5/lib/python/TAL/TALInterpreter.py, line 229, in __call__ File /local/zope-2.5/lib/python/TAL/TALInterpreter.py, line 262, in interpret File /local/zope-2.5/lib/python/TAL/TALInterpreter.py, line 594, in do_useMacro File /local/zope-2.5/lib/python/TAL/TALInterpreter.py, line 262, in interpret File /local/zope-2.5/lib/python/TAL/TALInterpreter.py, line 613, in do_defineSlot File /local/zope-2.5/lib/python/TAL/TALInterpreter.py, line 262, in interpret File /local/zope-2.5/lib/python/TAL/TALInterpreter.py, line 414, in do_optTag_tal File /local/zope-2.5/lib/python/TAL/TALInterpreter.py, line 396, in no_tag File /local/zope-2.5/lib/python/TAL/TALInterpreter.py, line 262, in interpret File /local/zope-2.5/lib/python/TAL/TALInterpreter.py, line 547, in do_loop_tal File /local/zope-2.5/lib/python/TAL/TALInterpreter.py, line 262, in interpret File /local/zope-2.5/lib/python/TAL/TALInterpreter.py, line 414, in do_optTag_tal File /local/zope-2.5/lib/python/TAL/TALInterpreter.py, line 396, in no_tag File /local/zope-2.5/lib/python/TAL/TALInterpreter.py, line 262, in interpret File /local/zope-2.5/lib/python/TAL/TALInterpreter.py, line 503, in do_insertStructure_tal File /local/zope-2.5/lib/python/Products/PageTemplates/TALES.py, line 295, in evaluate File /local/zope-2.5/lib/python/Products/PageTemplates/ZRPythonExpr.py, line 121, in __call__ (Info: path(elemstruc)) File Python expression "path(elemstruc)", line 2, in f File /local/zope-2.5/lib/python/Products/PageTemplates/PythonExpr.py, line 153, in __call__ File /local/zope-2.5/lib/python/Products/PageTemplates/Expressions.py, line 214, in __call__ File /local/zope-2.5/lib/python/Products/PageTemplates/Expressions.py, line 211, in _eval (Info: element) File /local/zope-2.5/lib/python/Products/PageTemplates/Expressions.py, line 141, in render (Object: atable_view) File /local/zope-2.5/lib/python/Products/PageTemplates/ZRPythonExpr.py, line 146, in call_with_ns (Object: __render_with_namespace__) File /local/zope-2.5/lib/python/Shared/DC/Scripts/Bindings.py, line 266, in __render_with_namespace__ (Object: atable_view) File /local/zope-2.5/lib/python/Shared/DC/Scripts/Bindings.py, line 283, in _bindAndExec (Object: atable_view) File /local/zope-2.5/lib/python/Products/PageTemplates/ZopePageTemplate.py, line 267, in _exec (Object: atable_view) File /local/zope-2.5/lib/python/Products/CMFCore/FSPageTemplate.py, line 106, in pt_render (Object: atable_view) TALESError: Sorry, an error occurred

1 0

CMF and views newbie question
by Bernd Kulawik 24 May '02

24 May '02

Hi, I created a new CMF Type (copying the "CV" example from the Beehive Book - of course, I know, this is concerning CMF 1.1 on Zope 2.4.0 while I have CMF 1.2 on Zope 2.5.0, where i.e. two dtml-scripts from the example have to be replaced by python scripts ...) The example seems to work fine: I can create a new "CV", edit it, edit Metadata and so on, but it does not appear on the "View" of the portal... When I click "Folder contents" it does. I looked through "responsible" scripts (only 4, I believe) and tried to find the problem there, but couldn't. Any Ideas? thanks Bernd

1 0

CMF and views newbie question
by Bernd Kulawik 24 May '02

24 May '02

Hi, I created a new CMF Type (copying the "CV" example from the Beehive Book - of course, I know, this is concerning CMF 1.1 on Zope 2.4.0 while I have CMF 1.2 on Zope 2.5.0, where i.e. two dtml-scripts from the example have to be replaced by python scripts ...) The example seems to work fine: I can create a new "CV", edit it, edit Metadata and so on, but it does not appear on the "View" of the portal... When I click "Folder contents" it does. I looked through "responsible" scripts (only 4, I believe) and tried to find the problem there, but couldn't. Any Ideas? thanks Bernd

1 0

Zope Serving Linux File System
by Tran, Mike 24 May '02

24 May '02

Hi all, Besides LocalFS, does Zope have any other products or methods to serves-up linux local file system. What i want to do is to allow our users(developers) to upload/download their contents to the webser without having to import huge files into ZODB. These files could reach up to Gigabytes per user. Does anyone have any suggestion on how i should handle this? Thanks, Mike

2 1

RE: [Zope] partition 'zope' server
by Douglas Perry 24 May '02

24 May '02

Hmmm... Devote the 2.1GB disk to OS (Solaris or Linux on Sparc). The other one do a /zope partition. Then store all your Zope instances there. How much RAM do you have in that?

1 0

dtml-with help
by Matt Standish 24 May '02

24 May '02

Hello- I have a simple question. I would like to do this: <dtml-with <dtml-var group>> But of course it does not work. <dtml-var group> Is a value in my MySql database. It also represents a directory name in my Zope tree. Meaning is the user is in the engineering group they will be forced into the engineering directory. Did that make any sense? Thanks for any help. -Matt

2 2

a win for structured text
by John Hunter 24 May '02

24 May '02

I am running a zope site for the Epilepsy Surgery Dept data here at the U of C, managing patient information: EEGs, MRIs, that kind of things. One of our users is a veteran neuro-surgeon from Soviet Georgia who is providing, among other things, the seizure diagnosis and summaries. He is used to working in Microsoft Word and wanted the ability to add bold, emphasis etc... I explained that web browsers didn't support that kind of stuff in the same way that MS Word did, but that he could use structured text. To keep is simple, I only showed him only how to use bold and emphasis. I wrote on a piece of paper to demonstrate: Bold: **This sentence is bold** Emphasis: *This sentence is emphasized* He balked, saying this would take him too long, and I retorted, "no this is easy, just an extra character here and there". He said "This will make my 3 page patient summaries 6 pages long". It took about 15 minutes before I realized that he thought he had to type the whole damned sentence above every time he wanted to make something bold, ie, to make the phase "partial seizures" bold in the sentence below, he would have to type: The patient presented with a **This sentence is bold**partial seizure. Well, once that was cleared up he appeared satisfied. He came back this morning with several summaries completed, filled with proper structured text markup. He had gone home the night before and written it in Word, and came in the morning and pasted it into the web form. That gave me a particular sense of satisfaction: writing structured text in Word. This morning I printed up plenty of rich examples for him -- tables, lists, links, the works. We'll see where he goes. John Hunter

6 12