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RE: [Zope] DTML discussion at the moment
by Alexander Staubo 15 Jun '99

15 Jun '99

Martijn Faassen wrote: >Tom Deprez wrote: >> >> I'm not that familiar with Python, ASP etc. But, do keep in >mind that DTML >> was created to give non-programmers the oppertunity to get some nice >> webpages done. This idea should be kept the same. Perhaps >one could create >> two scripting languages : one which looks the same as a programming >> language and one, with less capabilities, but which can be used by >> non-programmers. Thus creating levels-of-use in the >scripting language > >I think that this is the idea already! Right now, we have DTML >documents/methods for HTML people. They can add some extra DTML tags to >talk to SQL or things written in Python. SQL is there for the database >people. Python is the full fledged programming language. for the >programmers. You can write external methods in it, products, and >apparently Digital Creations is working on a way to write Python safely >from within the Zope management screens. > >What currently happens perhaps too often is that people (the >programmers) use rather heavy-duty DTML tricks to accomplish things, >because using Python is too hard for those small things right now. [snip] Yep, but we mostly do it because wrapping things in an External Method is more painful than writing the equivalent code in DTML. Do a mistake in writing the EM that you have to restart Zope. There is no provision for writing the EM Python code through the Zope management interface -- for this reason I'd like to see a Script Method object which has a text-area field where you can write Python code. It'd definitely ease the transition to Python whenever this is needed. -- Alexander Staubo http://www.mop.no/~alex/ "`This must be Thursday,' said Arthur to himself, sinking low over his beer, `I never could get the hang of Thursdays.'" --Douglas Adams, _The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy_

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RE: URGENT: Can't start up zope
by Jay, Dylan 15 Jun '99

15 Jun '99

Ok, I've solved my own problem. I removed MailHost and modified this method in Product.py def _delObject(self,id): o = getattr(self, id) if hasattr(o, '_factories'): for factory in getattr(self, id)._factories(): factory._unregister() ProductFolder.inheritedAttribute('_delObject')(self, id) This allowed me to delete the strange object from the ProductManager in ContolPanel. Then when restarting with the MailHost product code put back everything was fine. I'd like to thank myself for the invaluable assistance I provided myself :) Now for my rant. How on earth did I get in this situation???? There are two serious problems here. 1) How on earth did an object get overridden by a completely different object. This might have something to do with object id's getting mixed up???? In any case its a really big bug and as I'm not sure when or how it happened I'm not sure how we can fix it. 2) It is a seriously problem if anything in the ODB can prevent zope starting. Since zope is only method of accessing the ODB then it can't be fixed (easily) unless Zope can be brought back up. It seems to me that much more care should be taken to find any unhandled exceptions in the zope init sequence. I disliked the idea of a putting all my data into some closed repository. I am completely left helpless if I want to rollback any changes in situations like this. There should be an intergration into a source control repository like CVS. Something that is file based so data can be manually edited. Also is there anyway to reduce the dependence of the main zope functionality on states kept inside the ODB? ie in this case is it necessary to keep persistant information on all the Products in the ODB? In short, Zope needs to be crash proof. How can we make this happen? > -----Original Message----- > From: Jay, Dylan > Sent: Saturday, June 12, 1999 13:11 > To: 'zope(a)zope.org' > Cc: 'support(a)digicool.com' > Subject: Re: URGENT: Can't start up zope > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Michel Pelletier > > Sent: Friday, June 11, 1999 2:42 PM > > To: 'djay(a)lucent.com'; zope(a)zope.org > > Cc: Support > > Subject: RE: URGENT: Can't start up zope. > > > > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > From: Dylan Jay [mailto:djay@cse.unsw.edu.au] > > > Sent: Friday, June 11, 1999 2:29 PM > > > To: zope(a)zope.org > > > Cc: support(a)digicool.com > > > Subject: URGENT: Can't start up zope. > > > > > > > > > I was doing some external method work on our production > > > server (silly boy) > > > and something went very wrong. Every time I start zope it > > > will crash. This > > > is both as an NT service and using ZHTTPServer. ZHTTPServer > > > gives a stack > > > dump that mentions initializing products and factories and stuff > > > (unfortunatly my office has a power outage currently so I > > > can't the dump > > > or the data.bbb until 5 hours or so). Using the bbb.py it > reports no > > > corruptions so I can only presume the database contains some > > > configurations that screws up zope. To make matters worse our > > > expensive > > > backup solution doesn't seem to have backed up data.bbb. > > > > > > > Can you send us this traceback? Did a power outage occour > > while the server was running? Did the machine not get shut > > down properly and this this problem happened? Or did it just > > happen after a clean shutdown (ie, what was the state of the > > server before coming up the first time with this error). > > No, It occured while testing an external method. > > Heres the dump > > C:\Program Files\Provision>..\python\python serve.py > Traceback (innermost last): > File "serve.py", line 100, in ? > ZopeHTTPServer.main(args) > File "C:\Program > Files\Provision\ZopeHTTPServer\ZopeHTTPServer.py", line 498, > in main > start(module_file,host,port,threading,env) > File "C:\Program > Files\Provision\ZopeHTTPServer\ZopeHTTPServer.py", line 436, > in start > set_published_module(module_file,BoboRequestHandler,env) > File "C:\Program > Files\Provision\ZopeHTTPServer\ZopeHTTPServer.py", line 432, > in set_published_module > __import__(name) # to catch problem modules right away > File "C:\Program Files\Provision\lib\python\Main.py", line 103, in ? > Bobobase=OFS.Application.open_bobobase() > File "C:\Program > Files\Provision\lib\python\OFS\Application.py", line 371, in > open_bobobase > install_products(app) > File "C:\Program > Files\Provision\lib\python\OFS\Application.py", line 486, in > install_products > App.Product.initializeProduct(product, product_name, > package_dir, app) > File "C:\Program > Files\Provision\lib\python\App\Product.py", line 428, in init > ializeProduct > if old is not None: products._delObject(name) > File "C:\Program > Files\Provision\lib\python\App\Product.py", line 145, in _del > Object > for factory in getattr(self, id)._factories(): > factory._unregister() > AttributeError: _factories > > Now that I've had some time to debug it a little, what I > discover is this. > The above crash happens while trying to initialize the > MailHost object. The reason is that getattr(self,id) in the > call above is actually a DTML object not a Factory object. > Somehow a piece of code got whacked in the wrong place. > I can now get the site up by removing the MailHost product. > However mail is an extermely important part of the site in > that no new user can register without it. When a shut it down > and add MailHost back in I get the same problem. What I need > to do is somehow take out what is posing as the MailHost > Product. I have no idea how to do this. > > I will resend this mail to digicool.com with my database > > > > -Michel > > > > > What I need to know are > > > a) What the likely causes of a something like I'm describing? > > > I realize I > > > havn't given much to go on, but ANY information you can give > > > me at this > > > point would very very appreciated. > > > b) What tools do I need to modify the data.bbb. I can convert > > > it xml ok > > > but it seems there's no way to convert it back. Is there any > > > tool where I > > > can just roll back the last few transactions? (This may not > > > work actually > > > as it was probably the external method that did the damage). > > > > > > In case its relevent I guess I should include some detail of > > > the external > > > method I was working on. It was a method to determine if > a user had > > > permission to view an object. It looked at a users roles > > and the roles > > > for the view permission. It would recurse with the parent if > > > the object > > > aquired roles. > > > > > > Thanks in advance for any ideas anyone has. > > > > > > > > > > > > Dylan. > > > djay(a)lucent.com > > > > >

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RE: [Zope] Running with WebSite Pro?
by Paul Everitt 15 Jun '99

15 Jun '99

Many web servers refuse to send authentication information to CGI scripts. I suggest using the recently-posted ISAPI connector: http://www.mop.no/~alex/download/zisapi-0.1.zip ...announced at: http://www.zope.org/pipermail/zope/1999-June/005370.html --Paul > -----Original Message----- > From: Phillip Beazley [mailto:pcbmls@futuresights.com] > Sent: Tuesday, June 15, 1999 12:10 PM > To: zope(a)zope.org > Subject: [Zope] Running with WebSite Pro? > > > Okay, I can't take it any longer. :) > > For the life of me, I cannot get Zope to work with WSP. Maybe it is, > but I can't get past the Authentication problem (i.e. can't get to > /manage). Anyone ever tried using it with WebSite Pro? If > so, please > let me know. We're definitely interested in hosting this. > > Thanks! > > -- > Phillip Beazley > FutureSights -- Web Hosting, Development & Marketing > Visit http://www.futuresights.com/ or call 727-577-SITE! > > > _______________________________________________ > Zope maillist - Zope(a)zope.org > http://www.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope > > (For developer-specific issues, use the companion list, > zope-dev(a)zope.org - http://www.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev ) >

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DTML discussion at the moment
by Tom Deprez 15 Jun '99

15 Jun '99

I'm not that familiar with Python, ASP etc. But, do keep in mind that DTML was created to give non-programmers the oppertunity to get some nice webpages done. This idea should be kept the same. Perhaps one could create two scripting languages : one which looks the same as a programming language and one, with less capabilities, but which can be used by non-programmers. Thus creating levels-of-use in the scripting language -Tom-

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RE: [Zope] ANNOUNCE: EXPERIMENTAL DTML Syntax change
by Paul Everitt 15 Jun '99

15 Jun '99

Jon wrote: > One question: why the hyphens? Why not: > > <dtml var standard_html_header> This makes it not a tag any longer -- var becomes an attribute of one "HTML" tag called dtml. --Paul

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Any experiences with Zope+Python+Cygwin?
by Miller, John M. 15 Jun '99

15 Jun '99

As a matter of curiosity, Has anyone had experience getting Python 1.5.2 and Zope to compile/build using the tools from Cygwin? If workable, this might provide an alternate solution to those out there without convenient access to Microsoft's DevStudio applications. I hope to give it the old college try myself, though my knowledge of Python, Zope, and Cygwin is embarrassingly deficient, at some point this week. Assuming the process does not turn me into a raving, suicidal lunatic (I'll be sure to leave important contact information with family and friends so I can be checked to be sure I haven't gone missing) I would be happy to write up my experiences if any are interested. Cheers, John

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DTML reformulated as XML (was RE: [Zope] <% ... %> ?)
by Otto Hammersmith 15 Jun '99

15 Jun '99

[reasons snipped for brevity] > Proposal > -------- > > _If_ these were the requirements, then I think a reasonable proposal is > XHTML: > > http://wdvl.com/Authoring/Languages/XML/XHTML/ > > http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/#future > > XHTML reworks HTML as an XML-compliant language. Most imporantly, you > can extend it with new namespaces (like Zope instructions) without > breaking the DTD, as is the case with ColdFusion et al. I'll start by saying, this is *absolutely* the right thing to do. I've been mulling over this exact idea, but haven't had the time to post something to the list. (Not that I've been playing with Zope overly long.) I do want to point one thing out, though: adding namespaces does break the DTD. Currently there is no way to validate a document that uses namespaces. This will be fixed, eventually. Until then, you just have to live with well-formed but not valid documents. (Well, you can define a special DTD that defines the namespace prefix as well, but then that defeats the ability to change the namespace prefix.) > Why? > > 1) Alledgely it is the future of HTML. > > 2) Becoming well-formed means the authors can be given hints before > saving changes, and Zope can do smarter things with structured data on > the server. > > Why Not? > > 1) A number of differences with HTML might drive people off. Purely syntactic: <br> becomes <br/> and you can't leave out end tags (</p>) it's not so bad. Well, okay, I imagine there will be a lot of griping over the decision of enforce lowercase element names. :) > 2) It isn't here yet. Simple transformation makes XHTML into HTML, again for old clients. Probably so simple, it's not worth involving XSL. > 3) Zope syntax might not be mappable into XML. Close, but not quite. I'm sure it's possible to create an XML syntax that has all the functionality of DTML... however, it might very well end up being an ugly unwieldy syntax. > At any rate, I'd love for someone in the Zope community to march off and > take a look at this, then make a proposal for how things should be > changed. As always, patches are accepted. :^) I've been meaning to do something like this. I might just spend some time thinking about it this weekend. Any actual coding probably won't happen, though. :) The simple stuff is easy: <?xml version='1.0'?> <xdtml:xdtml xmlns:xdtml="http://www.zope.org/xdtml" xmlns="http://www.w3.org/TR/xhtml1"> <xdtml:var name='standard_html_header'/> <h1><xdtml:var name='title'/></h1> <p>This is a paragraph.</p> <xdtml:if expr='age > 18'> <p>Text not everyone should read.</p> </xdtml:if> <xdtml:var name='standard_html_footer'/> </xtml:xdtml> The if gets really strange when you start adding 'elif' and 'else' clauses. I'll have to think about that one. The containing xdtml element is just there as a place to hang the namespace declarations off of. Also, it's there to make the DTML object a full-fledged self-contained XML document, needed to make any kind of editor useful. -Otto. (Please CC any replies to me, or I won't see it until the next digest goes out. :)

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RE: [Zope] <% ... %> ?
by Rob Page 15 Jun '99

15 Jun '99

<SNIPPED WAY OUT OF CONTEXT> > > and Zope can do smarter things with structured data on > > the server. > > I'm not so sure about this one. Zope has alot of structured > data now. For example, it would be pretty easy to find the > var references in a parsed DTML object, but I'm not sure how much > that gains you. Actually, I'd love to know, as part of some pseudo-automatic-documentation-generator all of the places where a var is used. For example, I'd like to know where I defined pApplicationName and every place I used it. --Rob

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RE: [Zope] <% ... %> ?
by Alex.Thomas＠dresdnerkb.com 15 Jun '99

15 Jun '99

I reckon this is a bit like the issues that will crop up when XML RPC gets established: soon people will want to put multiple calls in one message, then add in some conditional error handling etc. and before you know it XML will become a complete programming language. For this reason, I think that any XML rendition of logic should correspond to the serialization of statement objects (closures?) in a well-defined programming language, such as, er...., well, why don't we suggest one? I think this is the sort of thing that http://www.nombas.com are doing with their distributed Javascript, but there are several similar initiatives out there. cheers Alex -----Original Message----- From: Jules Allen [mailto:zope@jules.com] Sent: 15 June 1999 15:29 To: Paul Everitt Cc: Jim Fulton; zope(a)zope.org Subject: Re: [Zope] <% ... %> ? At 08:36 AM 6/15/99 -0400, Paul Everitt wrote: >> What makes it hideous? Is it the noice characters? (!--#) >> Is it the number of shift characters? Is it the fact that >> DTML don't look like other tags? Is it the tag in an attribute >> problem mentioned above? > >I'd say, in order: > >1) It doesn't look like the competition. (which is largely <% or >inventing their own tags). > >2) Excessive noise. I'd swap those two around. Yes, PHP and ASP are similar but Cold Fusion is more like The Zope Way. I used CF before I used ASP, as Allaire obviously got there first, and my gut reaction to the <% %> delimiters after doing a couple of years of CF was "thank the Maker!" <cfThis> ... </cfThis> and <cfThat> ... </cfThat> is cumbersome to type, especially in the pre-HomeSite days. CF works exceptionally well for less technical end users as it's all a bunch of widgets. Learn or look up the syntax and Bob's your uncle: You're pulling stuff from databases and sending confirmation mails like a champion. Paul, you mentioned that the chasm between DTML and external methods is currently too great. I haven't had a chance to delve into externals yet but maybe this idea of that DTML is for Power Users is valid. I hate to suggest a Wizard but maybe some kind of DTML builder is necessary for those that need training wheels? I've already got a few test Zope/HomeSite definitions working. Maybe I'll get them finished up this weekend or next. Anybody know a good way to get permanent 4 day weekends? :-) >3) When something interesting requires the expr machinery, you can only >do one expression per line. (Note that this complaint isn't slated to >be solved by a syntax change in DTML, just that it is a common >complaint). I do understand your previous statement about separation of 'reporting' and 'logic' and I think it's a good one. However, from a user perspective, I only know how to clumsily use a hammer (DTML) right now so everything looks like a nail to me. Separation of Church and State is a lofty goal and both bleed into each other's turf. >[syntax/tool support observations snipped] > >Here's a chance for all of you folks out there with expertise in HTML >tools (Dreamweaver, FrontPage, Cyberstudio, Alpha, Emacs, etc.) to weigh >in. As I said, I've got sample HomeSite definitions on the go but I'd really like to get my head around doing a (vi|vim) definition style as it's a better editor for my needs. I've never done one but I'm sure it can't be that hard. Of course Emacs is a nice operating system but I prefer Linux at home so I can't comment on that ;-) >> > 2) Becoming well-formed means the authors can be given hints before >> > saving changes, >> >> Good point. Erm, #var seems kind of fluid and only a very, very smart editor would be able to offer hints effectively. >Let's say you rename a document. Nearly all the competition will update >all the references to the document. ...and links, etc... I'd also like to say how refreshing and intelligent the comments from everybody are. So far I can't find one email where anybody's been called an a**hole. ;-) ZINU-(Zope-is-Not-USENET)-ly-yrs, baby! Jules -- "There should be one-- and preferably only one --obvious way to do it. Although that way may not be obvious at first unless you're Dutch." -- Tim <0.8 wink> Peters _______________________________________________ Zope maillist - Zope(a)zope.org http://www.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope (For developer-specific issues, use the companion list, zope-dev(a)zope.org - http://www.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev ) ########################################## This email, its content and any files transmitted with it are intended solely for the addressee(s) and may be legally privileged and/or confidential. Access by any other party is unauthorised without the express written permission of the sender. 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RE: [Zope] <% ... %> ?
by Paul Everitt 15 Jun '99

15 Jun '99

Jim wrote: > Do you mean only one line per expression? You can have > multiple expressions > per line *and* have multiple lines per expression:: > >  Sorry. You can only have one "expression" per var tag, meaning each "Python line" has to have the extra noise. --Paul

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