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RE: So what will we do? (was [Zope] What causes the community to stall so often?)
by Doyon, Jean-Francois 09 Mar '02

09 Mar '02

OK I just noticed this thread going, and I've had many thoughts on this as I have discovered, learned, and am in the process of implementing, Zope. First of all, while it is true that Zope is a faily complex system, as you point out it shouldn't be any more complex than other major OSS projects like Apache or PHP. I am not convinced that the lack of documentation comes from the fact that it is abnormaly hard to write. >From what I've seen on zope.org, it looks to me like everything is technology driven more than needs driven. There are 5 million wiki's that lead no where for instance, and tend to come up in searches, so 90% of the time I look for something I just find various "discussions", but hardly ever anything concrete. The Zope book exists, and I'm just starting now to get used to it now after months of Zope learning. I find the example often missing or unclear for instance ... there is NO cross referencing going on either ... No index, you just get one BIG page, you can't jump to specific sections, and so on ... Lately I find myself spending a fair amoutn of time decipehring Zope code to find the functions I want for insatnce, where they come from, whether they'r einherited, etc ... I've allways thought the LDP way of doing things is great, at least technically. I write documentation for an OSS project, and we went the LDP way of dsoing things for many reasons: first, anybody USED to working in the OSS world is familiar with such documentation, 2 it is based on DocBook, which means it is very powerfull, can be rendered in many formats, and so on. I write DocBook XML docs now, and I love it, and the users love it to. Zope is great to build sites, but it's NOT gret to make a documentation site it seems :) Using wiki's just because you can for instance, seems counter productive to me. The object oriented concept is great for programming, but not for documenting, since it "fragments" things too much I think. the ZDP it seems to me, is the way to go. The few OSS projects I've been involved in usually proceed this way, with a team of dedicated documentation writers. these are people that are familiar with the software, but also have the documentation writing required skills, proper english, page layout, content organization, etc ... In my case, the coders have it part of thei rprocess that wehn a function is added, modified, or deleted, they let the DP people know, and the docs get ammended. Of course the OOP thing makes thing different. May functions only get defined once, and re-used accross many places. This is where cross-refrencing things becomes vitallly important. you can list alll accessible functions for a given object for instance (or method, should I say), but the actually documentation of it can be done where it is defined ... A lot of docs just say "this function is available here" ... which often doesn't help much, and isn't enough information. Anyways, my .02$ :) J.F. -----Original Message----- From: Derek Simkowiak [mailto:dereks@realloc.net] Sent: Friday, March 08, 2002 4:48 PM To: Joel Burton Cc: Oliver Bleutgen; zope(a)zope.org Subject: Re: So what will we do? (was [Zope] What causes the community to stall so often?) This has been a very interesting thread, with many good points. Thanks to all who have posted. There were a couple of points I thought were complete rubbish. Like the idea that Zope is "more complex" than PHP, and thus can't be as well-documented. I'm sorry, but "functions" are no more easy to document than "object hierarchies". (OOP theory would state quite the opposite, in fact.) Compare Zope and MySQL. Both have the same business model, both are popular OSS products, and both have similar target markets/communities. Yet the MySQL documentation (both the User Manual and the developer's docs) are far more extensive than Zope's. PHP, GTK+, Qt, Apache, the Linux Operating System, SGI's OpenGL, SDL, the Python programming language, and the Perl programming language all have documentation that far surpasses that of Zope. Even smaller one-man projects like PyUI, or Pango, do a better job than Zope.org. It would be great if we understood why. Could it be that Zope community is just 'different'? Maybe, but I doubt it, because the Zope community overlaps with the PHP, MySQL, and Apache communities quite heavily. With the exception of the Linux Documentation Project (which has an almost unlimited scope, everything from Linux Quake install to RAID), docs are not written by the community. Having watched and participated in a few OSS projects, I've observed that almost all OSS documents are written by the people doing the coding. The PHP functions were documented by the guys who wrote those PHP functions. Note that a name on most of the Python docs is "Guido Van Russum" (who ironically enough works for Zope Corp). Most of the Apache docs were written by the core Apache developers. All of the Pango docs were written by Owen Taylor. Could it be Zope Corp's lack of prioritization? Maybe Zope Corp. management believes that "if you're busy writing docs, you're not busy developing", and so has set a mandate. Or more likely, Zope Corp just has a developer-centric company culture, and we all know how much developers like to write docs (right, Andreas? :). My personal opinion is that Zope Corp needs to realize that the community is faltering due to lack of docs, and re-prioritize. No, writing docs won't bring in cash directly. No, developers are not happy retrofitting docs for production-level code. But as somebody who stuck my neck out for Zope, and is now realizing how hard it is to find up-to-date info, I think this is a fair thing to ask of Zope Corp. Sitting on my desk right now are _The Zope Book_, _Zope Web Application Development and Content Management_, and _Zope web application construction kit_. They are mostly very good stuff, and given the present situation on Zope.org, I recommend them to anyone interested in Zope. Unfortunately, books can't keep up with issues (like Office XP and WebDAV), and the HowTos (or even mini-HowTos) just aren't getting written. Thank You, Derek Simkowiak _______________________________________________ Zope maillist - Zope(a)zope.org http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev )

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Newbie question -- starting Zope under Mac OS X
by James Webster 09 Mar '02

09 Mar '02

Many apologies for posting a very newbie-ish question but I'm keen to get started with Zope on my Mac. I've compiled python 2.1.2 successfully, following the instructions in the zope.org site. I've run the wo_pcgi.py script and compiled Zope-2.5.0 into /usr/local/Zope-2.5.0. However, when I run sudo ./start, I get the following message: <stdout> ------ 2002-03-07T20:36:14 INFO(0) ZODB Opening database for mounting: '16517888_1015533374.122884' ------ 2002-03-07T20:36:14 INFO(0) ZODB Mounted database '16517888_1015533374.122884' at /temp_folder ------ 2002-03-07T20:36:40 INFO(0) Zope New disk product detected, determining if we need to fix up any ZClasses. ------ 2002-03-07T20:36:40 INFO(0) ZServer HTTP server started at Thu Mar 7 20:36:40 2002 Hostname: localhost Port: 8080 ------ 2002-03-07T20:36:40 INFO(0) ZServer FTP server started at Thu Mar 7 20:36:40 2002 Hostname: localhost Port: 8021 ------ 2002-03-07T20:36:40 PANIC(300) z2 Startup exception Traceback (innermost last): File /usr/local/Zope-2.5.0/z2.py, line 688, in ? IOError: [Errno 13] Permission denied: '/usr/local/Zope-2.5.0/var/Z2.pid' </stdout> I know enough to understand that there seems to be an ownership question here but what I haven't been able to work out is how I ought to change ownership. Do I need to create a special user to run zope, or what? I'm sure that the answer is staring me in the face but I thought that I would ask the community, whilst apologising for what might be a rather trivial enquiry. Many thanks James -- Dr J Webster work: jgw(a)wincoll.ac.uk pleasure: james(a)xargla.org

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(no subject)
by Alex Cordero 09 Mar '02

09 Mar '02

----- Original Message ----- From: Dieter Maurer <dieter(a)handshake.de> To: <aleciesse(a)infinito.it> Cc: <zope(a)zope.org> Sent: Friday, March 08, 2002 9:16 PM Subject: Re: [Zope] CookieCrumbler logout problems > Are you? How can I know what kind of authentication am I using? DTML method logged_out simply conrtrols if the curren user is Anonymous User by the call _.SecurityGetUser().getUserName() But if I was logged in it obviously returns my user name (or not?). If, so, How can I say to CookieCrumbler that I want to use real cookie authentication? Thanks Alex Cordero

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Re: [Zope] What causes the community to stall so often?
by Adam Manock 09 Mar '02

09 Mar '02

> Hell, if a SRPM were available, it would allow me to generate my >own RPMs with a single --rebuild command. You guys miss my earlier post or what?? I have a Zope 2.5.0 SRPM :-) Adam

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reliable RH 6.2 Linux start-up scripts?
by Chris Ryland 08 Mar '02

08 Mar '02

My current Zope script, cobbled together from various how-to's, isn't working reliably. Now that I start looking into it, I'm finding various conflicting information. Does anyone have a combination of an /etc/init.d/rc.d/zope and a .../zope/start script that is reliable under a fairly stock Red Hat 6.2 Linux? -- Cheers! Chris Ryland Em Software, Inc. www.emsoftware.com

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Re: So what will we do? (was [Zope] What causes the community to stall so often
by Heimo Laukkanen 08 Mar '02

08 Mar '02

>This has been a very interesting thread, with many good points. >Thanks to all who have posted. > > There were a couple of points I thought were complete rubbish. >Like the idea that Zope is "more complex" than PHP, and thus can't be >as well-documented. I'm sorry, but "functions" are no more easy to >document than "object hierarchies". (OOP theory would state quite the >opposite, in fact.) True. I have grown to think, that Zope actually makes lots of sense -- after one gets over the first steps and un-learn the way of doing applications the way one has previously done with asp or php. Problem is that on the path to the first stage of awareness is a whole lot of big problems and stones to bash your head into. And it takes a great effort to keep on going. >Could it be Zope Corp's lack of prioritization? Maybe Zope Corp. >management believes that "if you're busy writing docs, you're not busy >developing", and so has set a mandate. Or more likely, Zope Corp just >has a developer-centric company culture, and we all know how much >developers like to write docs (right, Andreas? [:)] . > >My personal opinion is that Zope Corp needs to realize that the >community is faltering due to lack of docs, and re-prioritize. No, >writing docs won't bring in cash directly. No, developers are not >happy retrofitting docs for production-level code. But as somebody who >stuck my neck out for Zope, and is now realizing how hard it is to find >up-to-date info, I think this is a fair thing to ask of Zope Corp. What if Zope corporation would hire an editor to keep up the community and documentation. I don't believe that just the documentation solves problems, there should be someone coordinating or helping different development efforts to work together. Integrate good tips from the mailing lists to the knowledgebases etc. Recruite people to write or update articles about different subjects, based on the buzz on the community. I mean there is lots of need for help for high end developers, but there is the possibility to dive into the code. There is even mor eto be done on the beginning level, to help more and more Zope users on their way and support good programming practises and designs. This is exactly what I would have liked to see a couple of months ago! And what if this would happen? Well for starters I would like to participate and contribute in areas that I migth be able to help someone else. One important note also: There should be CLEAR guidelines of where to find and distribute information. Zope-mailinglist is a great place, but also a dumping ground for all sort of requests from beginners to advanced users. It is also damn hard to try to find the information, even though I would know that I saw the guide somewhere - was it on the mailinglist, with which keywords, was it a howto, or on different sites outside Zope Corps. reach. And this - as far as I can tell - would require someone to coordinate and manage the information. -huima

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CookieCrumbler logout problems
by aleciesse＠infinito.it 08 Mar '02

08 Mar '02

I'm trying and managing with CookieCrumbler (as you all suggested). I've got a logout problem: when I try to logout with the standard logged_out method, it always goes to the "You're using HTTP based Authentication" part. the prbole is that AUTHENTICADED_USER in REQUEST can't be "Anonymous User" because no one sets it! Have I to set it by hand in some DTML-or-Python script? Many thanks Alex Cordero Prova Genie Disco Virtuale: 10 gg. gratis per te! Per attivarlo clicca qui http://www.genie.it/provadiscovirtuale

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How to let user get login page without HTTP "redirect" with exUserFolder?
by Ren Bing 08 Mar '02

08 Mar '02

Hi, I am quite new to zope. I just installed exUserFolder and tried it. It works excellent. However, I noticed that before the login page appear, the "stack trackback" and some error message page glimpsed on the browser. I then find that the browser is redirected to the login form with HTTP redirect. I don't want to let user notice the redirect, if the connection is slow, user would be confused by the error message. I hope to redirect to the login page at the "server side". How can I do this? Thanks very much! Ren Bing

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Error codes
by Graham King 08 Mar '02

08 Mar '02

This may have been done to death before.... bear with me. Have searched around a fair bit for the meaning of "error codes", as in the ubiquitous "Aiieee! 10318 exited with error code: 138" Can anybody direct me to a repository where these specific errors are documented, what they mean, and how many there might be? (My memories of shelves full of books of documentation, and the biblical "System Error Messages and Codes", are receding even as mainframes wisp away into the mists of Avalonic myth). cheers Graham

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redirect after python script
by Chad Nantais 08 Mar '02

08 Mar '02

I have a script that processes a form. I want that script to send a value to the url of a page template (eg. viewCustomer?id=5). What line of python will do this?

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