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SunOS problems
by Pavlos Christoforou 12 Jun '99

12 Jun '99

Hello all I have downloaded the newly released Zope-1.10.3b1 and tried to install it on a SunOS 5.6 box (My first ever contact with a Sun machine!). I downloaded Python-1.5.2 as well. they both compiled successfully and Zope seems to start up ok. However whenever I try to access the Zope site I get: Unhandled exception in thread: Traceback (innermost last): File "/export/home/yifan/pavlos/Zope-1.10.3b1-src/ZServer/PubCore/ZServerPublisher.py", line 95, in __init__ response=response) TypeError: unexpected keyword argument: request I am using the latest release of ZServer and the accompanied patched ZPublisher. Any clues?? Pavlos

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Re: [Zope] BS BS BS BS BS BS
by Tony McDonald 12 Jun '99

12 Jun '99

> Thanks Tony, > > I tried your Rewrite and did get a little further. I went ahead and > upgraded to the apache-1.3.6. Looking at the rewrites from the > installation docs and the zap and the ones posted, I am confused as to what > is the objective here. Exactly what part of the uri are we supposed to > be rewriting? Are we altering a call for Zope.cgi or we altering anything > after the Zope.cgi/*? > (I've cc'ed this to the list, as it might help others, and the last paragraph is something I'd like an answer to as well) With the Rewrite rule as written, I *believe* that the url http://bogus.net/tester/test_script will be sent to the Zope.cgi as tester/test_script. Therefore it seems that all URLs for the particular server will get sent to Zope (I am trying to figure out a method whereby a subset of URLs on my virtual server get sent to Apache for 'normal' processing) and > Also I was wondering were do -you- keep your Zope.cgi? and what permission > do you have on it (and ownership)? > In the cgi-bin directory referred to in the Rewrite rule. Note that there *seems* to be problems with permissions with the pcgi stuff, ie you need to be pretty lax... The cgi-bin directory: drwxr-xr-x 3 nnle fmcc 512 Mar 3 23:08 cgi-bin/ The Zope.cgi -rwxr-xr-x 1 nnle fmcc 669 Mar 3 23:08 Zope.cgi* and probably most important of all, the var directory drwxrwxrwx 5 nnle fmcc 1024 Jun 11 12:12 var/ ...and it's contents... -rwxrwxrwx 1 nnle fmcc 13923900 Jun 11 15:36 Data.bbb* -rw-r--r-- 1 nnle fmcc 12999 Jun 11 12:03 Data.bbb.index -rwxrwxrwx 1 nnle fmcc 9 Mar 4 16:14 Data.bbb.trans* -rw-r--r-- 1 nnle fmcc 92 Jun 11 12:03 Data.bbb.trans.index -rwxrwxrwx 1 nnle fmcc 516 Feb 16 00:18 README* -rw-r--r-- 1 nnle fmcc 2143 Jun 8 05:51 ZServer.log -rw-r--r-- 1 nnle fmcc 4963 Mar 5 21:05 bbb.py -rw-r--r-- 1 nnle fmcc 11280 Jun 3 08:19 bbb2.py -rw-rw-rw- 1 nobody fmcc 2589 Jun 11 16:17 pcgi.log -rw-rw-rw- 1 nnle fmcc 4 Jun 11 12:12 pcgi.pid srwxrwxrwx 1 nobody fmcc 0 Jun 11 12:12 pcgi.soc= -rwxrwxrwx 1 nnle fmcc 221328 Jun 11 12:03 serve.errors* -rwxrwxrwx 1 nnle fmcc 1329 Jun 11 12:03 serve.log* -rw-r--r-- 1 nnle fmcc 4 Jun 10 09:04 serve.pid the 'nobody' group files are created by Apache via the cgi call. I had to set the Data.bbb and Data.bbb files via chmod 777 before I could get the pcgi version of Zope to work. To the list and the DC guys: This setup works for me (ok, you can all stop reading now), but it's pretty kludgey. If it's an effect of the various incarnations of Apache and Rewrite rules (as Michel wrote earlier), then ok I can live with it. There does seem a 'black magic' angle to getting PCGI to work however (but after my latest debacle of trashing my Database by running the CGI and :9673 Zopes in parallel), I'll likely as not, stick with the CGI route..particularly as mod_pcgi has recently turned up. tone.

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Re: [Zope] DTML reformulated as XML (was RE: [Zope] <% ... %> ?)
by Otto Hammersmith 12 Jun '99

12 Jun '99

Paul Everitt wrote on 6/11/99 5:54 pm: > >Otto Hammersmith wrote: >> I'll start by saying, this is >*absolutely* the right thing >to do. I've > >Hmm, I don't get that >reaction often these days. >:^) > >> been mulling over this >exact idea, but haven't had >the time to post something >to the list. (Not that I've >been playing with Zope >overly long.) > >I'd like to make sure >everyone agrees on the >goals, though. Just like the >idea of "Python Methods" >aka script objects, I think >everyone wants change, but >perhaps for different >reasons. > >> I do want to point one thing >out, though: adding >namespaces does break the >DTD. Currently there is no >way to validate a document >that uses > >Hmm, didn't realize that. > >> namespaces. This will be >fixed, eventually. Until >then, you just have to live >with well-formed but not >valid documents. >> (Well, you can define a >special DTD that defines the >namespace prefix as well, >but then that defeats the >ability to change the >namespace prefix.) > >Right. > >> > Why? >> > >> > 1) Alledgely it is the >future of HTML. >> > >> > 2) Becoming well-formed >means the authors can be >given hints before >> > saving changes, and >Zope can do smarter things >with structured data on >> > the server. >> > >> > Why Not? >> > >> > 1) A number of >differences with HTML >might drive people off. >> >> Purely syntactic: <br> >becomes <br/> and you >can't leave out end tags >> (</p>) it's not so bad. >Well, okay, I imagine there >will be a lot of griping over >the decision of enforce >lowercase element names. :) > >The bit about: > ><select name="foo"> ><option selected>Splat ></select> > >...not working, as attributes >(selected) can't be minimed >is, erm, weird. > >> > 2) It isn't here yet. >> >> Simple transformation >makes XHTML into HTML, >again for old clients. >Probably so simple, it's not >worth involving XSL. > >Hopefully there wouldn't be >much transformation, right? >That is, people could just >write stuff that was >readable by clients. > >> > 3) Zope syntax might >not be mappable into XML. >> >> Close, but not quite. I'm >sure it's possible to create an >XML syntax that has all the >functionality of DTML... >however, it might very well >end up being an ugly >unwieldy syntax. > >Here's one thing in DTML >that would be awfully >obscure in XML: > ><a href=""> > >That is, putting a tag inside >an attribute. Chris Petrilli >and Jim talked about this >today, perhaps as as entity >references. > >> > At any rate, I'd love for >someone in the Zope >community to march off and >> > take a look at this, then >make a proposal for how >things should be >> > changed. As always, >patches are accepted. :^) >> >> I've been meaning to do >something like this. I might >just spend some time >thinking about it this >weekend. Any actual coding >probably won't happen, >though. :) > >Understood. If you produced >a clear definition of the >goals, some samples for the >syntax, and a list of things >that are good and bad about >it, then that would be a >major win. > >> The simple stuff is easy: >> >> <?xml version='1.0'?> >> <xdtml:xdtml >xmlns:xdtml="http://www.z >ope.org/xdtml" >xmlns="http://www.w3.org/ >TR/xhtml1"> >> >> <xdtml:var >name='standard_html_head >er'/> >> <h1><xdtml:var >name='title'/></h1> >> <p>This is a >paragraph.</p> >> >> <xdtml:if expr='age > >18'> >> <p>Text not everyone >should read.</p> >> </xdtml:if> >> >> <xdtml:var >name='standard_html_foote >r'/> >> >> </xtml:xdtml> > >I'd love to do a straw vote >from the "I hate SSI" crowd: >is the above better? > >> The if gets really strange >when you start adding 'elif' >and 'else' clauses. I'll have to >think about that one. >> >> The containing xdtml >element is just there as a >place to hang the >namespace declarations off >of. Also, it's there to make >the DTML object a >full-fledged self-contained >XML document, needed to >make any kind of editor >useful. > >Precisely. It comes from the >namespace declaration at >the top. > >One more thing to muse >over is whether other things >from XML land should >surface. > >For instance, I've long >wondered if the ubiquitous >var tag should be broken >apart. People ask: why can't >yo > >******************* >****** >This e-mail has been >truncated. The entire e-mail >is available in your E-Mail >application. > -Otto.

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RE: Re: URGENT: Can't start up zope
by Jay, Dylan 12 Jun '99

12 Jun '99

This is kind of amusing that a document could just sit there so happily. Anyway this picture kind of sums up my problem <<MailHost.jpg>> If I attempt to delete it using the management interface I come up against the same problem as below. It doesn't have a factories() method so can't be deleted. > -----Original Message----- > From: Jay, Dylan > Sent: Saturday, June 12, 1999 13:11 > To: 'zope(a)zope.org' > Cc: 'support(a)digicool.com' > Subject: Re: URGENT: Can't start up zope > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Michel Pelletier > > Sent: Friday, June 11, 1999 2:42 PM > > To: 'djay(a)lucent.com'; zope(a)zope.org > > Cc: Support > > Subject: RE: URGENT: Can't start up zope. > > > > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > From: Dylan Jay [mailto:djay@cse.unsw.edu.au] > > > Sent: Friday, June 11, 1999 2:29 PM > > > To: zope(a)zope.org > > > Cc: support(a)digicool.com > > > Subject: URGENT: Can't start up zope. > > > > > > > > > I was doing some external method work on our production > > > server (silly boy) > > > and something went very wrong. Every time I start zope it > > > will crash. This > > > is both as an NT service and using ZHTTPServer. ZHTTPServer > > > gives a stack > > > dump that mentions initializing products and factories and stuff > > > (unfortunatly my office has a power outage currently so I > > > can't the dump > > > or the data.bbb until 5 hours or so). Using the bbb.py it > reports no > > > corruptions so I can only presume the database contains some > > > configurations that screws up zope. To make matters worse our > > > expensive > > > backup solution doesn't seem to have backed up data.bbb. > > > > > > > Can you send us this traceback? Did a power outage occour > > while the server was running? Did the machine not get shut > > down properly and this this problem happened? Or did it just > > happen after a clean shutdown (ie, what was the state of the > > server before coming up the first time with this error). > > No, It occured while testing an external method. > > Heres the dump > > C:\Program Files\Provision>..\python\python serve.py > Traceback (innermost last): > File "serve.py", line 100, in ? > ZopeHTTPServer.main(args) > File "C:\Program > Files\Provision\ZopeHTTPServer\ZopeHTTPServer.py", line 498, > in main > start(module_file,host,port,threading,env) > File "C:\Program > Files\Provision\ZopeHTTPServer\ZopeHTTPServer.py", line 436, > in start > set_published_module(module_file,BoboRequestHandler,env) > File "C:\Program > Files\Provision\ZopeHTTPServer\ZopeHTTPServer.py", line 432, > in set_published_module > __import__(name) # to catch problem modules right away > File "C:\Program Files\Provision\lib\python\Main.py", line 103, in ? > Bobobase=OFS.Application.open_bobobase() > File "C:\Program > Files\Provision\lib\python\OFS\Application.py", line 371, in > open_bobobase > install_products(app) > File "C:\Program > Files\Provision\lib\python\OFS\Application.py", line 486, in > install_products > App.Product.initializeProduct(product, product_name, > package_dir, app) > File "C:\Program > Files\Provision\lib\python\App\Product.py", line 428, in init > ializeProduct > if old is not None: products._delObject(name) > File "C:\Program > Files\Provision\lib\python\App\Product.py", line 145, in _del > Object > for factory in getattr(self, id)._factories(): > factory._unregister() > AttributeError: _factories > > Now that I've had some time to debug it a little, what I > discover is this. > The above crash happens while trying to initialize the > MailHost object. The reason is that getattr(self,id) in the > call above is actually a DTML object not a Factory object. > Somehow a piece of code got whacked in the wrong place. > I can now get the site up by removing the MailHost product. > However mail is an extermely important part of the site in > that no new user can register without it. When a shut it down > and add MailHost back in I get the same problem. What I need > to do is somehow take out what is posing as the MailHost > Product. I have no idea how to do this. > > I will resend this mail to digicool.com with my database > > > > -Michel > > > > > What I need to know are > > > a) What the likely causes of a something like I'm describing? > > > I realize I > > > havn't given much to go on, but ANY information you can give > > > me at this > > > point would very very appreciated. > > > b) What tools do I need to modify the data.bbb. I can convert > > > it xml ok > > > but it seems there's no way to convert it back. Is there any > > > tool where I > > > can just roll back the last few transactions? (This may not > > > work actually > > > as it was probably the external method that did the damage). > > > > > > In case its relevent I guess I should include some detail of > > > the external > > > method I was working on. It was a method to determine if > a user had > > > permission to view an object. It looked at a users roles > > and the roles > > > for the view permission. It would recurse with the parent if > > > the object > > > aquired roles. > > > > > > Thanks in advance for any ideas anyone has. > > > > > > > > > > > > Dylan. > > > djay(a)lucent.com > > > > >

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Is there any plans to combine harvest with catalog?
by Jay, Dylan 12 Jun '99

12 Jun '99

Seems catalog in solving the same problem.

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RE: [Zope] Name of top level folder
by Alexander Staubo 12 Jun '99

12 Jun '99

Well, you can write your own External Method that processes each branch, thus:    The FilterBranches() function would check the list returned by objectValues(), remove any that were not fit and return the filtered list. Another method would be to omit the objectValues(...) call, and have your FilterBranches() function iterate through the subobjects itself; you might save a few nanoseconds by doing this. Beyond that, I'm sure there is an undocumented attribute/feature somewhere that does what you ask. If not, maybe there should be? -- Alexander Staubo http://www.mop.no/~alex/ "`This must be Thursday,' said Arthur to himself, sinking low over his beer, `I never could get the hang of Thursdays.'" --Douglas Adams, _The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy_ >-----Original Message----- >From: zope-admin(a)zope.org [mailto:zope-admin@zope.org]On Behalf Of >Alex.Thomas(a)dresdnerkb.com >Sent: 11. juni 1999 15:14 >To: zope(a)zope.org >Subject: RE: [Zope] Name of top level folder > > >Next challenge is to be a bit more selective about which documents are >displayed in the tree. For instance, could I not include objects with a >'dontIndex' property set by filtering the list that >ObjectValues returns? No >idea how to code this, probably something to do with map or apply sorta >things, if anyone has the answer to hand this should keep me >quiet for a >bit! > >thanks a lot >alex > >-----Original Message----- >From: Alex.Thomas(a)dresdnerkb.com [mailto:Alex.Thomas@dresdnerkb.com] >Sent: 11 June 1999 03:31 >To: zope(a)zope.org >Subject: RE: [Zope] Name of top level folder > > >Ah, brilliant - the expr keyword comes to the rescue. Many >thanks, don't >think I would have found that for a long time. > >As I'm now indebted to you and the list, I might make the very modest >contribution of the DTML that makes the multiline tree headings line up >neatly. Well, it's a start... > >cheers >alex > >-----Original Message----- >From: Alexander Staubo [mailto:alex@mop.no] >Sent: 11 June 1999 02:49 >To: Zope Mailing List (E-mail) >Subject: RE: [Zope] Name of top level folder > > >You might be confusing "name" with "id" or "title". You're right, the >root object does not have a name, but that should stop you from >including it in iterations, or the tree tag. > >To tell the #tree tag to start at the top, do: > >  >  >  > >Note that, for obvious reasons, the top level will not be included in >the tree. (If you're wondering how the hierarchical tree seen in the >Zope management screens manages to include the root object, >this isn't a >trick performed just with the #tree tag. See >zope/lib/python/Ap/menu.dtml for the DTML code.) > >-- >Alexander Staubo http://www.mop.no/~alex/ >"`Ford, you're turning into a penguin. Stop it.'" >--Douglas Adams, _The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy_ > >>-----Original Message----- >>From: zope-admin(a)zope.org [mailto:zope-admin@zope.org]On Behalf Of >>Alex.Thomas(a)dresdnerkb.com >>Sent: 11. juni 1999 02:34 >>To: zope(a)zope.org >>Subject: RE: [Zope] Name of top level folder >> >> >>If I have a document http:/mysite/index_html then if that >>document calls >>#tree I think PARENTS[0] would be the name of the top level >>folder. However, >>I can't use it (or PARENTS[-1] etc.) - raises a KeyError - so >>I suspect that >>there is no name for this folder, which is a bit of a shame... >> >>alex >> >>-----Original Message----- >>From: Alexander Staubo [mailto:alex@mop.no] >>Sent: 11 June 1999 01:33 >>To: Zope Mailing List (E-mail) >>Subject: RE: [Zope] Name of top level folder >> >> >>PARENTS[-1] will get you the top-level folder object, if that's what >>you're asking. >> >>-- >>Alexander Staubo http://www.mop.no/~alex/ >>"`Ford, you're turning into a penguin. Stop it.'" >>--Douglas Adams, _The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy_ >> >>>-----Original Message----- >>>From: zope-admin(a)zope.org [mailto:zope-admin@zope.org]On Behalf Of >>>Alex.Thomas(a)dresdnerkb.com >>>Sent: 10. juni 1999 23:36 >>>To: zope(a)zope.org >>>Subject: [Zope] Name of top level folder >>> >>> >>>OK, an easy one - what's the Name of the top level folder? I >>>need it to pass >>>to the #tree tag so it displays the whole structure. >>> >>>Thanks! >>> >>>alex >########################################## >This email, its content and any files transmitted with it are intended >solely for the addressee(s) and may be legally privileged and/or >confidential. Access by any other party is unauthorised without the >express written permission of the sender. If you have received this >email in error you may not copy or use the contents, attachments or >information in any way. Please destroy it and contact the sender on >the number printed above, via the Dresdner Kleinwort Benson >switchboard on +44 171 623 8000 or via e-mail return. Internet >communications are not secure unless protected using strong >cryptography. This email has been prepared using information believed >by the author to be reliable and accurate, but Dresdner Kleinwort >Benson makes no warranty as to accuracy or completeness. In particular >Dresdner Kleinwort Benson does not accept responsibility for changes >made to this email after it was sent. Any opinions expressed in this >document are those of the author and do not necessarily reflect the >opinions of the Bank or its affiliates. They may be subject to change >without notice. >########################################## > >_______________________________________________ >Zope maillist - Zope(a)zope.org >http://www.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope > >(For developer-specific issues, use the companion list, >zope-dev(a)zope.org - http://www.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev ) >

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ANN: Client ISAPI extension for Zope
by Alexander Staubo 12 Jun '99

12 Jun '99

Announcing the client ISAPI extension for Zope, a piece of glue that makes it possible to use Zope with an ISAPI-compliant web server, specifically Microsoft Internet Information Server (IIS) 4.0 or later. It is considered beta quality code. You are advised not to use it in a production environment until a stable release is announced. Really this means "I've tested it a lot on my machine, and it works, but who knows? Maybe I was lucky?". Verbose reports of reproducible instabilities or bugs are gladly accepted. If somebody at DC wants to put it up under the "contributed software" section, be my guest! http://www.mop.no/~alex/download/zisapi-0.1.zip -- Alexander Staubo http://www.mop.no/~alex/ "`This must be Thursday,' said Arthur to himself, sinking low over his beer, `I never could get the hang of Thursdays.'" --Douglas Adams, _The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy_

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var rendering question
by J Kinsley 11 Jun '99

11 Jun '99

After two and a half weeks of tinkering with Zope, I have decided that I will ditch my conventional web technology for this new alien technology. It has already rewired half my brain, so I might as well go for a complete rewiring job. You sure you guys at DC aren't from another planet? ;-) The site I am constructing as a means of learning Zope uses frames by default if supported by the remote. For browsers that do not like frames or users who don't want frames, I have constructed psudo frames using tables. Insterad of trying to explain this in words, below is a quick snippet of code illustrating the problem. FRAMESET: <frameset> <frame target=title src=> ... </frameset> TABLESET: <table> <tr> <td colspan=2>  </td> </tr> ... </table> With that, both the problem and the concept of what I am doing should be clear. For each frame there is an xxx_src variable which is set to the DTML object id to be displayed in the particular frame (title_src=/Title.dtml). The frameset version works as expected while the tableset only displays the '/Title.dtml' string (which is why my test version uses  instead). My question is this. Is there a builtin way to get the contents of the DTML object pointed to by xxx_src instead of the object name? If not, then I am assuming that I will need an external method which is one beast I have yet to figure out. Regards, Jarrod Kinsley

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RE: [Zope] <% ... %> ?
by Chris Petrilli 11 Jun '99

11 Jun '99

> here here; the current zope dtml syntax is really a nightmare. I would I don't disagree that the current syntax is quite baroque in the mode that it is used by many people for many projects---many times because there is no other option. However... > be even more extreme and as has been suggested elsewhere > would use some > open and close delimiters to contain arbitrary python. Blah, no this again violates the paradigm that we are trying to push, which is that you keep your logic code as much out of your presentation code as possible. By allowing this inclusion, I think you're only reverting to the ASP model, which is a serious step backwards. One might even argue that the painfulness of the current syntax encourages people not to write much in DTML :-) Unfortunately, we've not done a great job of giving them something else to use. This *will* change very soon I hope. The concept of call is that it will be used to do some very basic things, like:  You wouldn't want to implement approveEntry in DTML. At least not if it was more than a couple lines of code. I hope what I'm saying makes sense, because I think a lot of people are still approaching Zope from the mindset of CGI, PHP, ASP, etc., where you have code, logic and presentation all mingled in the same file. That's not what Zope is designed to encourage, just the reverse... we want you to seperate it as much as possible, because then you can gain re-use of data AND logic. Chris

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RE: [Zope] <% ... %> ?
by Alexander Staubo 11 Jun '99

11 Jun '99

Oops, my line <var>title_or_id</var><html:br> would of course be <var>title_or_id</var><html:br/> Again, this is something of a headache. And we haven't even mentioned SQL Methods yet. (And sorry about the text wrapping. It shouldn't so hard to figure out though.) -- Alexander Staubo http://www.mop.no/~alex/ "`This must be Thursday,' said Arthur to himself, sinking low over his beer, `I never could get the hang of Thursdays.'" --Douglas Adams, _The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy_ >-----Original Message----- >From: Alexander Staubo [mailto:alex@mop.no] >Sent: 11. juni 1999 23:27 >To: 'Zope Mailing List (E-mail)' >Subject: RE: [Zope] <% ... %> ? > > >Very lucid and intelligent discussion, Paul. As an eager fan >of XML, I second the idea to push XHTML as the next-generation >Zope DTML syntax. > >If this is the goal, the "tag" syntax currently used by Zope >can be preserved, with some modifications. > >I've jotted down a few examples of how such a modified syntax >might look, at least as I see it. At least this is one >possible angle. (Note: Best read in a monospaced font.) > > XML syntax:: Equivalent legacy syntax:: > > <zope:tree expr="PARENTS[-1]">  > ... stuff ... ... stuff ... > </zope:tree>  > > <zope:var expr="id()"/>  > > <zope:var obj="standard_html_header"/>  > > <zope:var>index_html</zope:var>  > >For non-XMLists, notice the use of the slash ("/") character >to close up empty elements. Also note how all parameters to a >tag are wrapped in true attributes. Something like <var "foo"> >simply isn't permitted. > >Here's a sample of specifying a default namespace, so you that >you use Zope tags without qualifying them with the "zope" >namespace. Notice how this -- if it is to be done cleanly -- >requires that you prefix HTML tags with the "html" namespace. >I have not decided whether this is entirely necessary, since >Zope will preprocess the DTML and in this case, would have to >remote the "html:" prefix anyway. > > <in xmlns="http://www.zope.org/schema/1.0" >expr="objectValues('DTML Document')"> > <var>title_or_id</var><html:br> > </in> > >Unfortunately, the idea that you can write something like <var >standard_html_header> is rescinded by XML, unless ASP-like >"blocks" of code as Jules Allen proposes can be included. >Given the current syntax I can't conceive of a way that this >can be done elegantly -- the minute we step into >"ASP-like"-ness, we're in the realm of "defining a new >language". While Jules' example syntax would certainly work on >a technical level, the question is, as much as we abhor the >current SSI syntax, do we really want to become more like ASP? > >-- >Alexander Staubo http://www.mop.no/~alex/ >"`This must be Thursday,' said Arthur to himself, sinking low over >his beer, `I never could get the hang of Thursdays.'" > >--Douglas Adams, _The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy_ >>-----Original Message----- >>From: zope-admin(a)zope.org [mailto:zope-admin@zope.org]On >Behalf Of Paul >>Everitt >>Sent: 11. juni 1999 20:09 >>To: 'Jules Allen'; zope(a)zope.org >>Subject: RE: [Zope] <% ... %> ? >> >> >> >>Jules wrote: >>> Has it been suggested that the SSI-type syntax of Zope >isn't the most >>> readable thing in the world? Is this even the right list to >>> suggest this >>> heresy or should I strap on the asbestos underwear and wander >>> over to zopedev? >> >>I'll comment first on the multiline statement. Let me reinforce the >>idea that The Zope Way is to separate presentation and logic. > While we >>should have some kind of object that better deals with logic, I don't >>think there will be much sympathy for creating something that >>looks like >>ASP or PHP. >> >>Let me limit the conversation back to your subject line: <% vs. <!--# >> >>The latter was originally chosen to be like the dominant syntax at the >>time (SSI) and to be "legal HTML". I think the latter has >proven to be >>total bunk, as almost no DTML Documents are valid (they get nearly >>everything from the fragments of standard header and footer). >> >>What are some reasons to consider changing from the SSI syntax? >> >> o It's hideous, cumbersome, and everybody hates it >> >> o No tools support editing it >> >> o It isn't conformant with the direction of HTML >> >> o Any others? >> >>Let's evaluate the situation in light of these. >> >>It's Hideous >>------------ >> >>Yes. >> >>Tool Support >>------------ >> >>The SSI syntax just happens to enjoy nearly zero support out there. >>Things like Netscape Composer, Dreamweaver, and Emacs HTML Mode just >>can't be convinced to handle it nicely. >> >>Does anyone view this issue as important? >> >>Future of HTML >>-------------- >> >>What role does SSI play in the future of HTML? Zero. Of course, >>neither do any of the alternative syntaxes mentioned previously. >> >>Thus, I'd like to list some requirements for a future syntax: >> >>1) Within reach of "content managers". I won't budge on this one. I >>think XSL will have a role in Zope, but *NOT* as a DTML replacement. >> >>2) Reasonably close to DTML. The current DTML accomplishes some level >>of functionality. While some small amount might not be permitted in >>some change, or might be permitted in a clumsy way, there should be a >>reasonable match. >> >>3) Coherent with the HTML future. We have a choice: invent a syntax >>and, one by one, support every web authoring tool. Alternatively, we >>can stick to standards and wait for them to support it. >> >>Proposal >>-------- >> >>_If_ these were the requirements, then I think a reasonable >proposal is >>XHTML: >> >> http://wdvl.com/Authoring/Languages/XML/XHTML/ >> >> http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/#future >> >>XHTML reworks HTML as an XML-compliant language. Most imporantly, you >>can extend it with new namespaces (like Zope instructions) without >>breaking the DTD, as is the case with ColdFusion et al. >> >>Why? >> >>1) Alledgely it is the future of HTML. >> >>2) Becoming well-formed means the authors can be given hints before >>saving changes, and Zope can do smarter things with structured data on >>the server. >> >>Why Not? >> >>1) A number of differences with HTML might drive people off. >> >>2) It isn't here yet. >> >>3) Zope syntax might not be mappable into XML. >> >>At any rate, I'd love for someone in the Zope community to >>march off and >>take a look at this, then make a proposal for how things should be >>changed. As always, patches are accepted. :^) >> >>--Paul >> >>Paul Everitt Digital Creations >>paul(a)digicool.com 540.371.6909 >>----------------------------------------- >>The Open Source Zope application server >>http://www.zope.org/ >>----------------------------------------- >> >>_______________________________________________ >>Zope maillist - Zope(a)zope.org >>http://www.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope >> >>(For developer-specific issues, use the companion list, >>zope-dev(a)zope.org - http://www.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev ) >> >

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