October 2002 - Zope-Dev

2.6 hang problem
by Chris Withers 03 Oct '02

03 Oct '02

Hi, I've got a site running a CVS version of Zope taken from the 2.6 branch on 19/9/02. The site is running off Python 2.1.3 on a Debian box and also uses ZEO 1.0. Yesterday, it appears this site died during a ZCatalog update as the last entry in Z2.log was for the advanced catalog management form. However, there was no entry for the actual re-catalog. Nothing was output to the console. Very weirdly, when I went to look at the stupid_log_file, it was totally blank. Now, I did a tail -f on that file, and when I executed the Zope stop script, the following were output to the stupid log file: ------ 2002-10-02T10:41:55 INFO(0) Z2 Caught signal SIGTERM ------ 2002-10-02T10:41:55 INFO(0) Z2 Closing all open network connections ------ 2002-10-02T10:41:55 PROBLEM(100) ClientStorage Disconnected from storage ------ 2002-10-02T10:41:56 PROBLEM(100) ClientStorage Disconnected from storage ------ 2002-10-02T10:41:56 INFO(0) client Trying to connect to server: ('x', xxxx) ------ 2002-10-02T10:41:56 PROBLEM(100) ClientStorage Disconnected from storage ------ 2002-10-02T10:41:56 INFO(0) Z2 Closing all open ZODB databases ------ 2002-10-02T10:41:56 INFO(0) ClientStorage close ------ 2002-10-02T10:41:56 PROBLEM(100) Z2 A handler for SIGTERM failed! Traceback (innermost last): Module zdaemon.SignalHandler, line 58, in signalHandler Module Signals.Signals, line 28, in shutdownHandler Module Signals.Signals, line 83, in closeall Module ZODB.DB, line 248, in close Module ZEO.ClientStorage, line 237, in close Module ZEO.zrpc, line 234, in closeIntensionally Module ZEO.trigger, line 90, in pull_trigger OSError: [Errno 32] Broken pipe When I restarted Zope, things appear to have come up fine. The funky new error log object is empty, but I guess it's not a persistent thing... The storage server (also running off the same CVS version of Zope) seems to have survived fine through all of this. Likewise, a Windows ZEO client running off the same Zope version seems to have kept going fine. Any ideas? cheers, Chris

2 2

Re: [Zope-dev] Zopezen.org is slower! Should time be spent on Plone or ZPT speed?
by James Johnson 03 Oct '02

03 Oct '02

> > But with some good people switching channels, > > will Zope still end up a major player in the market? > >Unfortunately from my forays into the non-Zope (or Plone) into the CMS >market I dont think Zope is anywhere near a major player. I just don't >understand why working on Plone is considered switching channels. When I >developed the CMFZen skin was that switching channels? Is Squishdot? I can only wonder and speculate why it's not a major player in the market. I've been around long enough in the industry to see free products such as winamp, MIRC, Linux, PK-Zip and others that have actually become like standards in their areas. I equate switching products to switching channels because look how CMFZen is changing, and what in the hell ever happened to Swishdot?!? Please don't get me wrong, products like squishdot, CMFZen, and others have steered me towards Zope. They are fine examples of the things that make Zope appealing. But if you really think about what I'm saying you might understand my meaning. Zope-->is to MTV and Plone --> is to VH1. Squishdot--> is to CMT. Now this analogy is not a hard and fast rule, so you can mix and match whatever Music television stations are in your area to whatever zope product you like. The point is they are all music stations, and some even try to be more. I believe MTV is the number one worldwide. Now I'm relating Zope to MTV back when it was new and first came out. It was all music 24 hours a day. First it was pop/rock and then they added like Rap and other styles. Next thing you know you have other "music" stations that cater to specific niche groups. Even if you have a picture in picture(PIP) television can you really comfortably watch two stations at once? No, so if you watch, support and become a fan of Country Music Television, how much time is taken away from the original MTV? Imho until Zope has achieved the market share and the place where is should be, Then the other stations(products) become more valuable as alternatives. > >Whenever I speak to anyone about Plone I mention Zope in the first >sentence. > Lets now examine that sentence, aha but you mention Plone before you mention Zope? ;-) It was at first tricky to get the Zen of Zope. Then you had to learn the Zen of CMF, Now there is a need for the Zen of Plone. I got two old sayings, one is I think some people might be "Putting the cart before the horse" and "Too many cooks, spoil the broth" <snip> >Perhaps, but how will you know until you try? There's more than one reason >a >project goes under and in some ways Plone is quite different. That's what they all say. I've tried, but to say the least Plone is an ambitious project. But I have to agree with Erik how much or how little are you planning on porting to a stock zope/cmf product with what you do with Plone? > > > I smell commecial interest here. I smell people trying to make that >one > > killer project hoping to make it big, instead of centering around the >one > > vehicle that will help make a bunch of projects big someday. > >I won't deny it. I believe I can sell Plone and I'm not sure I can sell >Zope >as easily. Its a simple fact that I have to sell what the clients want: if >I >spend all my time concetrating on Zope innards, I doubt I'll be able to pay >the mortgage. In the last 3 months 75% of my clients have come to me for >Plone, in one case I steered them to a solution in Zope because I felt it >was a more appropriate solution. All I can say is selling products such as Plone, medzope,or whatever makes sense for sure. Even if it's just consulting gigs for the Free versions. But if I can guess what the market will do, then the market will either open-source or make free their products to stop any serious damage to their share of the market. Right now they are like Microsoft. As long as they are making money why give it away free? Only time will tell. Btw I'm just trying to present alternative ideas on the table. Peace, -- James I am a Washington State Citizen. Spamming this Email Address may be against Washington State Law Chapter 19.86, and 19.190 RCW. http://www.wa.gov/ago/junkemail/protect.html _________________________________________________________________ Join the worlds largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail. http://www.hotmail.com

3 2

Re: [Zope-dev] Plone/Metadata/FUD
by James Johnson 03 Oct '02

03 Oct '02

>From: Max M <maxm(a)mxm.dk> >Paul Everitt wrote: >> >>...this. How can we listen to you if you're not participating? But to >>your point: the Zope community does not want, IMO, Zope and CMF merged. >>Content management is a piece of the Zope pie, not the whole pie. > > >And sooo right you are. If Zope became the CMF or Plone I would drop it in >an instance. > I'm way too tired and need to hit the sack now, but here is a quote from the URL given to me by Paul " Zope 3 will include many of the components and frameworks currently supplied by the CMF. " Now I never claimed or stated that the CMF needed to be merged with the Core Zope. Nor did I claim that Plone needed to be merged into Zope. After school tommorrow I will work to clarify my position. What I'm sensing though is double speak, because now it sounds like you want to beef up that shovel, and imho the content to be managed is the dirt. My only response is why wasn't " Many of the components and frameworks currently supplied by the CMF" included in the core Zope in the first place? Everybody has the right to work on their own thing sure. We would already have a highly extensible Zope3 by now if the time wasn't spent trying to create something else that should have been in the core of Zope in the first place. Let me ask you this, what does an app server serve? I say it servers content, you can call it data, information, results, or whatever. I'd say we would have had alot more products out for Zope had that framework been placed in Zope instead or "Forking" the content concept with a seperate tool. There are parts of the CMF that we can agree on that don't belong in the core of Zope. And that is where products such as Plone, CMFZen, and Swishdot come into play. What is the problem with my point of view? <snip> Peace, -- James I am a Washington State Citizen. Spamming this Email Address may be against Washington State Law Chapter 19.86, and 19.190 RCW. http://www.wa.gov/ago/junkemail/protect.html _________________________________________________________________ Send and receive Hotmail on your mobile device: http://mobile.msn.com

2 1

Re: [Zope-dev] Zopezen.org is slower! Should time be spent on Plone or ZPT speed?
by James Johnson 03 Oct '02

03 Oct '02

I know I thought about that for a minute, but I believe MTV was well established when they came out with VH1. But seeing that Zope is not the first app server on the market, it's like that first one I've used. I know its a good thing to see all of these alternate frameworks and/or products, but I'll shut up until I can do more to constructively help out with the zope core. >> Please don't get me wrong, products like squishdot, CMFZen, and others >>have steered me towards Zope. They are fine examples of the things that >>make Zope appealing. But if you really think about what I'm saying you >>might understand my meaning. Zope-->is to MTV and Plone --> is to VH1. >>Squishdot--> is to CMT. > >The funny part of your analogy: MTV is the creator and owner of VH1. Now >why do you suppose they did that? :^) > >--Paul Peace, -- James I am a Washington State Citizen. Spamming this Email Address may be against Washington State Law Chapter 19.86, and 19.190 RCW. http://www.wa.gov/ago/junkemail/protect.html _________________________________________________________________ Join the worlds largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail. http://www.hotmail.com

1 0

Re: [Zope-dev] Zopezen.org is slower! Should time be spent on Plone or ZPT speed?
by James Johnson 03 Oct '02

03 Oct '02

>From: Paul Everitt <paul(a)eurozope.org> >I agree with Andy. Zope is a tool. Things like Silva and Plone are >products. The purpose of Zope is to allow people to build things like >Silva or Plone, or things quite different (perhaps custom to their own >needs) quickly. > >And frankly, tools don't sell themselves. People want to see glitz. Hmm, I also see Zope as a tool, as well as a vehicle. So you can say I see it now as a shovel, when it should be an earth mover. They both move earth, but you can move mountains with the earth mover. Now the earth mover is no limo, or fancy sports car with all the bells and whistles. It has the functionality added to get the job done. I think one of the reasons we don't see eye to eye on this is because I don't have the luxury or burden of running a large company. I don't have to provide paychecks to people, so I'm not looking for that quick glitzy fix to generate revenue. > >You could argue that Zope should be the project/brand with the glitz. But >you're now limiting people's choices, because you're turning Zope into a >product rather than a tool. I understand the need to keep it simple, so that people can customize it without having to tear things out. I think one can argue that a tool is a product, perhaps it's more of a framework, such as the CMF. > >Back to the X11/KDE argument. Ever looked at an X11 server running w/out a >window manager? That's Zope. But it's wrong to "fix the problem" by >eliminating X11 and merging it with KDE, because then the Gnome (and >windowmaker, and sawfish, and...) people would be unhappy. > When I use linux I go for the Gnome window manager. I'm a windows guy at heart, and some could argue that linux has way too many choices. I read somewhere that was one of it's downfalls to becoming a desktop standard. >Layers provide choice. Sure, they also provide a bit of confusion, but >this cost is far outweighed by the benefits. Especially in open source, >where people participate because they want to participate, not because they >have no other choice. Layers can also provide problems that need to be addressed. You made some excellent points in your other posting. I'm attending a technical college where they have 100 or so computers with windows NT and 5 machines with Linux. Nobody is using the Linux machines, so I'm hard-pressed to see the benefits. Just like with my oracle training the default server is jserver which I believe is based off of tomcat. They won't even let me install Zope, so again I'm hard-pressed to see the benefits you speak of. Constructive confict is good and it helps to flush out some hidden issues. You see it as a X11/KDE thing and I see it as a shovel/earth mover thing. I don't mean to try and speak for anyone else. I love what anybody does for Zope. I just feel that as a shovel it will never be nothing more than someones backyard tool. And I thought you wanted it to be able to hang with the big boys some day? At the very least thanks for hearing me out. Peace, -- James I am a Washington State Citizen. Spamming this Email Address may be against Washington State Law Chapter 19.86, and 19.190 RCW. http://www.wa.gov/ago/junkemail/protect.html _________________________________________________________________ MSN Photos is the easiest way to share and print your photos: http://photos.msn.com/support/worldwide.aspx

1 0

Re: [Zope-dev] Zopezen.org is slower! Should time be spent on Plone or ZPT speed?
by James Johnson 03 Oct '02

03 Oct '02

Hi Andy, Thanks for you kind explanation. I may have been premature in my assessment the new Zopezen.org. I see your point on the various roles individuals can play in the open-source world. I also believe that by you embracing plone so deeply gives the project much more weight and crediblity. >Firstly lets address your subject. ZopeZen.org is slower. Why is that? > >- There is a lot more work being done to render a page in Plone >- There is less caching being done, I havent optimized it as much as the >old >site was >- The BSD memory leak in Python 2.1.3 is not helping >- More html, javascript and css is being used <snip> Excuses and issues that need to be addressed no doubt. These are the things that end up making most everything better in the long run. I also need to mention that it's not all that slow to me. I'm using your DTML based cmfZen for one of my sites, instead of plone because of ZPT speed. I liken the situation back to the early days of Music Television(MTV) When they were small, new and up and coming. Their motto was simple "I want my MTV" hence "I want my Zope". You can have all the other channels, ie CMF,Plone, MMMSkins, Transwarp, but what really drove the success of the Music video was MTV. I hope the analogy helps those to see that Zope can be the MTV of the CMS Market. But with some good people switching channels, will Zope still end up a major player in the market? Unless you read the story "Swimmy" you may not understand my meaning that in this case the community might not win by being a bunch of little fish pretending to be a big fish. All in all I trust andy's commitment, and I look forward to the next release of zopezen. >So your suggestion is instead of not using Plone and ZPT in the real world >to see how they perform, I should just concentrate on working on ZPT? No, it just seems you've even committed your efforts to plone/ZPT. Seems to me you went from DTML-> Plone/ZPT. You know a while back there was even talk to move some of the ZPT functionality to DTML. Now that you've embraced Plone so much that It will be even longer before there are decent instructions on how to get a binary build of the core Zope on windows ;-) <snip> >The Plone project brings people to Zope, it puts Plone in front of users. >In >the end that means improvements all down the line back to Zope. I beg to differ with you on this. Plone brings people to Plone. And just as much as the other commercial/open-source projects sought to bring users to Zope, those projects are long gone. ie world pilot, spoke.net, metapublisher, etc. They don't even share the same audience it's been said. I'll say again, I think Zope is playing Swimmy when it should be playing MTV and setting the bar for other Content systems. I hope I don't offend anyone. Like I said I agree with Andy. I think we all play an invaluable role in this. I've lost many a jobs because I've insisted on using Zope, That's how much I believe in Zope. Call me a fool, but it is Zope that I believe in, and time spent on anythings else makes me nervous. Whatever you do let's KISS. You know Keep it simple .....! Btw how many parts are you going to have to publish for us to understand Plone? I smell commecial interest here. I smell people trying to make that one killer project hoping to make it big, instead of centering around the one vehicle that will help make a bunch of projects big someday. Thanks again for your time. Peace, -- James I am a Washington State Citizen. Spamming this Email Address may be against Washington State Law Chapter 19.86, and 19.190 RCW. http://www.wa.gov/ago/junkemail/protect.html _________________________________________________________________ Join the worlds largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail. http://www.hotmail.com

3 2

Zopezen.org is slower! Should time be spent on Plone or ZPT speed?
by James Johnson 03 Oct '02

03 Oct '02

Hi Ropas-Zopas, Just my 2 cents. I like plone and everything, but should'nt even the plone developers be working on improving and making ZPT faster? Seems to me in their rush to make this Plone product, they say they will make it compatible and faster, but I'm appalled, Yes I said it :-) Appalled at the way things are moving ahead with plone when ZPT is still in its infant stage. To sum it up Plone/CMF has got me hesitant on building with Zope because of the speed issues with ZPT. Sure I can use DTML, but every new cool thing seems to be based on ZPT. And with Zope3 on slated for eventual release, I feel for the community because of the other product diverions ZC can't even speculate a release date for it. Please understand that I'm not trying to "complain" in so much as I'm trying get and keep the community on a team/group track. I think if we watch what happens with Andy McKay and his efforts with Plone, we may learn a lot. Thanks for your time reading this. Peace, -- James I am a Washington State Citizen. Spamming this Email Address may be against Washington State Law Chapter 19.86, and 19.190 RCW. http://www.wa.gov/ago/junkemail/protect.html _________________________________________________________________ MSN Photos is the easiest way to share and print your photos: http://photos.msn.com/support/worldwide.aspx

2 1

RE: [Zope-dev] Integrating ZEO with Zope 2.7
by sean.upton＠uniontrib.com 02 Oct '02

02 Oct '02

Hmm... My thought: on Win32, bind the TCP port to the loopback address. Since Win32 in _most_ cases is not a multi-user system, this would have the general effect of keeping this from being an issue (unless you ran terminal services on your Win32 server). This obviously doesn't solve security concerns for things like virus/worm/script issues, but I would think that on Windows, if you have that problem, this is the least of your concerns (since there is likely another way a script could attack your underlying storage). On Unix, use a socket file and setup file permissions as you see fit... Surely, the appropriate action could be taken by a single startup script, based upon the platform? Sean -----Original Message----- From: Toby Dickenson [mailto:tdickenson@geminidataloggers.com] Sent: Wednesday, October 02, 2002 12:31 PM To: sean.upton(a)uniontrib.com; guido(a)python.org; zope-dev(a)zope.org Subject: Re: [Zope-dev] Integrating ZEO with Zope 2.7 On Wednesday 02 Oct 2002 8:03 pm, sean.upton(a)uniontrib.com wrote: > +1 +1 > IMHO, Zope releases should, in this scenario, be configured by default to > use a custom_zodb.py file with ClientStorage over a socket at startup, That is a tempting idea. Use of a TCP socket has security implications that make it a bad choice for a default, unless we implement mutual authentication. Use of a unix socket has the obvious problem that it wont work on windows.

2 1

problems packing with 2.5.1 ZEO server
by Andrew Sydelko 02 Oct '02

02 Oct '02

I've got a ZEO server that's using Zope 2.5.1 (Python 2.1.3) and ZEO 1.0. I try initiating a pack from the Database Management Control Panel and it starts doing it's thing. The unpacked database is 7.5GB and after writing about 5GB to Data.fs.pack it seems to stop packing. lsof no longer shows that python has Data.fs.pack open, so I'm assuming it encountered a problem and was not able to continue. Normally, everything goes fine and after the pack is done, the packed database becomes Data.fs and the prior-to-packing database becomes Data.fs.old. Any ideas? I'm working on copying this over to a test machine so that I can turn on ZEO server logging, but have not gotten there yet. Will packing from another (non-web) ZEO client show me anything more? What errors might occur during a pack that would cause this. I'm 99.999% sure it's not disk space because the partition it's on has 300GB available. I had STUPID_LOG_FILE turned on at one point, but it seemed to be logging everything that was done to the storage, which was _way_ more than I wanted (and didn't want it filling up the disk.) Is there a better way to get some logging from the ZEO server without lots of extra stuff? --andy.

1 0

ZClass object - FTP Upload fails
by Brad Clements 01 Oct '02

01 Oct '02

I have a Zclass whose bases are: ZObject, ZDTMLDocument, _ZClass_for_Renderable I am unable to FTP upload an existing instance. That is, HTML-Kit can open an instance and view the body source, but when I hit save I get an FTP error "426 could not create file". The instance does not have an extension in it's id (i.e., the object id is "overview"), and I do not have a Zope mapping of file extensions to this ZClass type. 1. Does the FTP server see STOR as a new create process, in which case I need to add an file extension to the object id AND create a mapping so Zope knows what type of object to make? (I think not, since I don't want to create a new object, just upload the body again) 2. How can I diagnose this error more? Where do I look? 3. Is there some obvious permission setting I haven't turned on for my ZClass? (I have FTP access mapped to "Change DTML Methods" in the corresponding Product "Define permissions" tab. Though I don't see "Ftp access" as a permission on this zclass under "define permissions" on the class, but it is shown as an inherited permisson. 4. Shouldn't I be inheriting a PUT method from the ZDTMLDocument class? Brad Clements, bkc(a)murkworks.com (315)268-1000 http://www.murkworks.com (315)268-9812 Fax AOL-IM: BKClements

1 0